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Thread: Is this world just nuts????

  1. #31
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    Oh I agree. Probably impossible. Just saying that some people are actually responsible for this guy getting killed. I disagree with FCB's contention that the only guilty party here is Wal-Mart and advertisers.

    I agree 100% that practically speaking nobody is likely to face any charges here. My guess is the police will go through the motions and after an appropriate amount of time declare that they can't actually find the person(s) responsible let alone build a case against them.

    I just disagree with your contention that physically stomping another human to death isn't "wrong" and that it's entirely Wal-Marts fault. I know your distain for corporations, market economies, and capitalism but it's beyond silly to lay this entirely at Wal-Mart's feet. The bulk of the blame? Definitely. The entire blame? Not a chance.

    This isn't Wal Mart's first rodeo. I would think that they have some kind of procedure in place for these type of days. I'm guessing that that particular store did not follow proper procedure. Otherwise, Wal Mart is lucky it hasn't occured elsewhere. I would guess that even if Wal Mart had a procedure in place to prevent this and if this store did not follow that procedure, Wal Mart might still have some liability here. Perhaps not as much as if they didn't have a proper procedure in place but the victims aren't going to get a lot from the store manager.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldRightHander View Post
    I just realized I was in that Wal Mart last week. This whole thing just saddens me to no end, not just because of the guy who died, but because of what it says about our society where rampant materialism is the order of the day, even to the point of trampling over other people just to get some thing that you so desperately need. Absolutely sickening.
    I agree 100% ORH. Except I doubt these people are in Wal Mart - or any other store - getting something they desperately need. It isn't food, water or medicine. You could understand it then. It's interesting that people behave better in crises like the blackout or 9/11 or a flood than they do on Black Friday or the day after Christmas.
    Last edited by Chip R; 11-29-2008 at 11:17 PM.
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  3. #32
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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post

    However, security could have forced the crowd to form lines, let people in a bit at a time, etc.
    The only problem is that Wal-Mart, as stated earlier by me, has no security officers. We have a division that deals with discouraging theft, but no one to keep order in either the store or the parking lot. I will describe what happened at my Wal-Mart in comparison. We let people in early, let them form lines near the merchandise, and stationed many associates near both the doors to keep order. I do think they should consider having security officers in the future, though.

  4. #33
    Bread Gloves Razor Shines's Avatar
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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    I think you guys are missing that MOST people do not act the way these people did. Most people (yes even horrible Black Friday shoppers) would not trample a person to death. Has this happened before? Yes, but when you think of the shear number of people that are out on Black Friday every year the percentage of people that act like animals is extremely minuscule. The problem isn't with crowds or with Black Friday shopping or even materialism (which is bad in of itself) the lion share of problem is with these people. Is there any action to be taken against the people responsible? Probably not. This particular Wal-Mart should have had a better plan for controlling the entering crowds, and for not being prepared they should pay a steep price.

  5. #34
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/30/ny...30walmart.html

    Mourning a Good Friend, and Trying to Make Sense of a Stampede

    Jdimytai Damour was a big man — 270 pounds, by one account — but he was a gentle giant to his friends, who said he loved to chat about movies, Japanese anime and politics. So on Saturday, they were still reeling from the violent and seemingly inexplicable way that Mr. Damour had died — trampled before sunrise on Friday, the police said, by rampaging shoppers running into a Wal-Mart store on Long Island where he was working as a maintenance man for the holidays.
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    A day after a worker was trampled to death, shoppers lined up outside a Wal-Mart on Saturday and police cars patrolled the area.

    “If you wanted to know about a show, this was the guy, and he had a great sense of humor,” said Jean Olivier, who met Mr. Damour eight years ago in the Rosedale section of Queens, a few minutes’ drive from the store where he was killed. “He was the guy who was always lively. He would have personally gotten out of the way if he knew they wanted that stuff.”

    Shoppers started lining up late Thursday night at the Wal-Mart, at the Green Acres Mall on Sunrise Highway in Valley Stream, not far from the Queens border, where DVDs, flat-panel television sets and other entertainment items were discounted to attract crowds on the traditional first day of the Christmas shopping season.

    Mr. Damour, 34, who was known to his friends as Jimbo, or Jdidread because of his dreadlocks, got his job at Wal-Mart through Labor Now, an agency for temporary workers. He had been trying to hold back a crush of shoppers pressing against the store’s sliding-glass double doors, the authorities said. Just before the store’s scheduled 5 a.m. opening, they said, the doors shattered under the weight of the crowd. Mr. Damour was thrown to the floor and trampled.

    The Nassau County police were trying to determine what happened during the stampede, but said it was unclear if there would be any criminal charges. Michael Aronsen, a Police Department spokesman, said he did not expect the department to announce the results of its investigation this weekend. The department has been looking at videos from the store’s surveillance cameras and sifting through witnesses’ accounts. Another department spokesman said on Friday that it would be difficult to determine who was responsible for Mr. Damour’s death.

    The Nassau County medical examiner has not announced a cause of death for Mr. Damour, who died just after 6 a.m. on Friday, about an hour after shoppers burst through the Wal-Mart doors. Four shoppers were injured in the stampede.

    Hank Mullany, the senior vice president of Wal-Mart’s Northeast division, said in a statement that the company had hired extra security officers and installed barricades before the store opened, but “despite all of our precautions, this unfortunate event occurred.”

    David Tovar, a company spokesman, declined to say how many extra officers had been added on Friday. Each store, he said, made its own security arrangements. Security at the mall is handled by a subcontractor, Securitas, which patrols the parking lot but not inside the Wal-Mart, which opened in 2003 and employs more than 300 workers.

    On Saturday, two security guards were posted outside the Wal-Mart, which is next to a Petland Discounts store and a National Wholesale Liquidators outlet. Workers were repairing one side of the metal door frame that was damaged on Friday.

    The Wal-Mart was busy on Saturday, with long lines at the registers. Many shoppers were aware of Mr. Damour’s death and said they were appalled that people did not stop to help him as he lay on the ground, and instead surged into the store seeking bargains.

    “How do you stomp somebody like that?” asked Kenny Murphy, 30, of Lynbrook, N.Y., who was shopping with his wife, Lara. “It’s disgusting how people acted yesterday.”

    Wal-Mart workers interviewed on Saturday said they had been told by their managers not to speak to reporters or give their names. But they said that on Friday morning, when the store was closed for a few hours after Mr. Damour’s death, dozens of workers gathered near the front door to pray. They were led by a woman who worked as a greeter.

    “It was crazy,” said a worker in the electronics department who was in the store during the stampede. “The deals weren’t even that good.”

    Some of the workers said they were still shaken by Mr. Damour’s death and added that they had mixed feelings about whether the store should have hired more security.

    “How could you know something like that would happen?” said one worker, who added that the store was even busier this year than on Black Friday last year. “No one expected something like that.”

    Green Acres opened in 1956 on the site of the former Curtiss Wright Airport. One of the first open-air shopping centers on Long Island, it had 1.2 million square feet of retail space and counted Gimbels, J. C. Penney and J. J. Newberry among its first tenants.

    In 1968, the center was enclosed and later expanded to accommodate the growing number of shoppers from Queens, Brooklyn and Long Island.

    But Green Acres, which is now owned by Vornado Realty Trust, has also seen its share of trouble. In the 1980s, the mall earned a reputation as the “car theft capital” of Long Island. In 1990, four moviegoers were shot — one fatally — when two groups of teenagers opened fire in a crowded theater that was showing “The Godfather, Part III.”
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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    Wal-Mart customarily keeps the Food Door open all night, but locks the GM Door at 11 PM. I don't have any idea why the doors wouldn't have already been open. It sounds like they made a mistake keeping both doors locked before 5 AM. I am surprised to hear that they had hired security officers, as Wal-Mart usually doesn't do that.

  7. #36
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    Quote Originally Posted by AmarilloRed View Post
    Wal-Mart customarily keeps the Food Door open all night, but locks the GM Door at 11 PM. I don't have any idea why the doors wouldn't have already been open. It sounds like they made a mistake keeping both doors locked before 5 AM. I am surprised to hear that they had hired security officers, as Wal-Mart usually doesn't do that.
    Because of the unique situation, it being Black Friday, they probably had all the doors locked until the opening time so that people couldn't "sneak" in through the Food Door.

    They did hire extra security, and even had barricades there; but just how much security was enough (or not enough) to control a crowd like that?

    I just hope stores like Walmart learn something from this, especially in larger metropolitan areas like this one, and take appropriate corrective action. You have to take responsibility to have a system in place to control crowds and keep some sense of order.

    Also.... these stores "promote" this frenzy by not only drastically slashing prices on hot items, but also having very limited quantities on hand. When I read of previous situations where customers are diving over glass counters like Troy Polamalu trying to make a tackle, shattering glass and severely injuring themselves and the employee, then something needs to be down to create order.

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    Last edited by GAC; 11-30-2008 at 04:46 AM.
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  8. #37
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    SoCal Toys 'R' Us Shooting Leaves Two Dead

    PALM DESERT, Calif. — Two men pulled guns and shot each other to death in a crowded toy store Friday after the women with them erupted into a bloody brawl, witnesses said. Scared shoppers fled but no one else was hurt.

    The violence erupted on Black Friday, the traditional post-Thanksgiving start of the holiday shopping surge, but authorities indicated the shooting wasn't related to a shopping frenzy.

    Riverside County sheriff's Sgt. Dennis Gutierrez said the fight was not over a toy. He said handguns were found by the men's bodies, but he released little other information. He would not answer a question about whether the shooting was gang-related.

    Witnesses Scott and Joan Barrick said they were checking out of the store when the fight began between two women, each with a man. The women were near the checkout area, but the Barricks did not think the women had purchases.

    One woman suddenly started punching the other woman, who fought back as blood flowed from her nose, Scott Barrick, 41, said.

    The man who was with the woman being punched pulled a gun halfway out of his pocket, then shoved it back in, he said.

    "He pulled his gun right next to me. I turned to look for my wife, and she was already hiding," Barrick said.

    "I was scared," said Joan Barrick, 40. "I didn't want to die today. I really didn't want to die today, and I think that's what we were all thinking."

    The other man pulled a gun and pointed it at the first man but forgot to cock it, Scott Barrick said. The first man tried to run but was blocked by the line of people, then ran back toward the store's electronics section as the other man fired his gun, he said.

    The first man reached a dead-end in electronics, turned around and ran toward an exit, pulling his gun and firing back, he said.

    "He went up to the cash register, he went to put his hand on the thing and he just went phoomp," he said, indicating the man fell.

    He said he did not see what happened to the other man.

    Palm Desert Councilman Jim Ferguson said police told him two men with handguns shot and killed each other.

    "I think the obvious question everyone has is who takes loaded weapons into a Toys "R" Us?" he said. "I doubt it was the casual holiday shopper."

    Ray Turner, 20, said he was two aisles away when two women began shouting and screaming at each other and he had a clear view of the fight until a crowd clustered around them. Both women had children, he said.

    "We thought it was just a fight and then someone yelled, 'He's got a gun. He's got a gun.' You really couldn't see nothing because there was a crowd," Turner said.

    Rafael Gomez, 11, said he and his father had been in the store about 20 minutes before the shooting but were in a nearby Pizza Hut when they saw people pouring out of the store screaming.

    "We just saw them running and crying. I was kind of scared," Rafael said. "We got lucky."

    Toys "R" Us issued a statement expressing outrage over the violence.

    "We are working closely with local law enforcement officials to determine the specific details of what occurred," the statement said. "Our understanding is that this act seems to have been the result of a personal dispute between the individuals involved. Therefore, it would be inaccurate to associate the events of today with Black Friday."

    The Barricks and others remained at the scene long after the shooting because investigators would not allow cars to be taken from the parking lot until a crime-scene reconstruction was completed.

    Palm Desert is a resort town about 120 miles east of Los Angeles.
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  9. #38
    Member TeamCasey's Avatar
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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    Has anyone ever been in a riot situation? I was in the one at Jammin' on Main many years ago. I was waiting at a designated spot to meet my friends. All of a sudden a tear gas canister landed at my feet. I didn't even know what it was or what was going on. I was swept up in the crowd and I could literally lift my feet off the ground and still move with it. It was terrifying because you have no control whatsoever. The whole thing started at the front of a stage that I wasn't even near.

    Walmart handled their opening poorly. These stores need to set up barricades so customers need be in a line. They also need additional security at the doors.
    Last edited by TeamCasey; 11-30-2008 at 12:43 PM.
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  10. #39
    CELEBRATION TIME RBA's Avatar
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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    From what I seen on news video of the scene, I didn't see much in the way of "barrier". I did see a sign that said, "Blitz Line" with an arrow pointing you to the line to get in the store. Blitz? An all out rush? Seems like wal-mart was promoting the mayhem.

    According to the crowd reports, security was non-existent. According to Wal-Mart, they had additional security on hand? If I were to bet, this store chose to deploy their security in "loss-prevention". The additional "security" were probably manning the back room cameras looking for shop-lifters and undercover employees doing the same around the store. Property valued over life, by the crowd and the corporation.

  11. #40
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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    Quote Originally Posted by TeamCasey View Post
    Has anyone ever been in a riot situation?
    Jethro Tull at the Riverfront Coliseum 8 months prior to the Who Concert tragedy, same situation as the Who concert, surging crowd, one door and screaming people... I fell down (I was 14 and weighed 100 pounds) someone stepped on me and this huge guy reached down and grabbed me and flung me forward to my feet and towards the door.

    He's my all time hero.

  12. #41
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    I was in a bar in Calogne, Germany at 2:00am during Karnavale. Total mayhem. Never seen so many people pressed into one place. Like others described, you just moved with the crowd and tried to press through gaps where you could. The crowd went one way, you went with it.

    Broken glass and spliled drinks were all over the floor. If you fell you were doomed.

    I tried to go to the bathroom and it took 30 minutes of manuvering to go maybe 20 feet. After I was done I decided to get the hell out of there. Had there been a fire or other emergency many people would have died.

    It was dumb to even go in there in the first place. Don't plan on making that mistake again.
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  13. #42
    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    I don't know what this WalMart thing was like, but I'd gotten stuck in huge crowds for concerts at Riverfront Coliseum for McCartney/Wings and Led Zeppelin in the late 70's and it truly was a helpless feeling (I'm sure much like woy's experience).

    I was with a group of 6 (3 guys, 3 gals) and we really had to look out for one another because of the crush. Lots of screaming and pushing and people getting mad and/or panicking. When I heard the news about the Who concert, it didn't surprise me.

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  14. #43
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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    I agree 100% ORH. Except I doubt these people are in Wal Mart - or any other store - getting something they desperately need.
    I guess it's hard to show sarcasm in writing. I guess I should have said that they are looking for things they think they desperately need.
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  15. #44
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    A couple buddies and myself participated in Running of the Bulls in Spain. That was quite a life experience with mass crowds taunting bulls while they're running down the street. Mass hysteria as people tried to get out of the way. That is except for stupid Americans who were standing there with cameras trying to take pictures. I guess getting those Kodak moments was more important then one's life. Saw several people get mauled by bulls. One old man was killed.

    It's funny what one can do when being chased by a bull. I actually did a Spiderman and crawled up some spouting on the side of a building because I had no other place to go but up.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  16. #45
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

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