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Thread: Hawaii Winter League top 20 prospects

  1. #31
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Hawaii Winter League top 20 prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by redsof72 View Post
    I saw a lot of Frazier this season and while I am a huge fan of Frazier as a prospect, any talk of him staying at shortstop should be shut down. He simply lacks the initial quickness or explosiveness to play the position. Some tried to compare him defensively to Ripken at shortstop, but I don't see it. Slow choppers or any ball where he needs an explosive first and second step to get to are going to be base hits rather than ground outs.

    On the other hand, he has good hands and a decent arm, so I am not sure why anyone would doubt his ability to play third base. Moving him to the outfield would be a waste of an infielder's hands. I think he will play third base. The important thing with Frazier is to put him at a position and let him stay there and learn to play the position. The way they handled him last year, couple of days at one spot, then somewhere else, was insane for a player of his ability. It was almost a wasted year defensively.

    Problem with third base, of course, is you also have Francisco set to play at Carolina. With Jockety saying over and over that he prefers the trade market rather than the free agent market this winter, I would not be a bit surprised to see someone like Francisco dealt. He has value, no doubt about that. He is a second tier prospect in the system, just behind the top group of five or six. You are going to have to give up a couple of players in that tier to get a guy who will make an impact at the big league level, as they say they want to do.

    Talking with some players who were in instructional league and got their first good looks at Alonso, I am hearing that the things that stood out were his confidence, tremendous plate discipline (will draw a lot of walks at every level), and the fact that he is well-below average defensively at first base at this point. No chance Alonso moves off first base.
    Good post and I agree with all of it. That includes Alonso, he's definitely not a GG over there, however I think he can be decent but it's gonna take some work around the bag for sure.
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  3. #32
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Hawaii Winter League top 20 prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by redsof72 View Post
    Moving him to the outfield would be a waste of an infielder's hands.
    That's my take too. It's generally the bad hands, fleet-footed guys who get shipped to the OF.
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    Re: Hawaii Winter League top 20 prospects

    Hypothetically, if you have excellent defenders and hitters at 2B and 3B, I think you could stick Frazier at SS just to get his bat in the lineup as long as he's no worse than Jeff Keppinger defensively.

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    Re: Hawaii Winter League top 20 prospects

    camisadelgolf, I can't agree with you on that. He is too slow off the bat. There would be a mutiny among the pitchers. He will catch the balls he gets to, but you would be giving the opposition too many four-out innings, and we know how those often turn out.

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    Re: Hawaii Winter League top 20 prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by camisadelgolf View Post
    Hypothetically, if you have excellent defenders and hitters at 2B and 3B, I think you could stick Frazier at SS just to get his bat in the lineup as long as he's no worse than Jeff Keppinger defensively.
    No way. Shortstop is one of the most important defensive positions on the field. As Jeff Keppinger proved this season, a bad defender at SS can kill your pitching staff. IMO it's important to have strong defenders up the middle.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

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    Re: Hawaii Winter League top 20 prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by redsof72 View Post
    Problem with third base, of course, is you also have Francisco set to play at Carolina. With Jockety saying over and over that he prefers the trade market rather than the free agent market this winter, I would not be a bit surprised to see someone like Francisco dealt. He has value, no doubt about that. He is a second tier prospect in the system, just behind the top group of five or six. You are going to have to give up a couple of players in that tier to get a guy who will make an impact at the big league level, as they say they want to do.
    Good post. This is what I'm thinking too about Francisco.

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    Re: Hawaii Winter League top 20 prospects

    Well, my personal belief is that you can have a below-average defender at shortstop as long as his bat is good enough to compensate. Depending on how bad of a shortstop he is, it sounds like Frazier potentially has the bat to stick at shortstop.

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    Re: Hawaii Winter League top 20 prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by camisadelgolf View Post
    Well, my personal belief is that you can have a below-average defender at shortstop as long as his bat is good enough to compensate. Depending on how bad of a shortstop he is, it sounds like Frazier potentially has the bat to stick at shortstop.
    I don't like my pitchers having to throw an extra 10-15 pitches in an inning because his shortstop isn't quick enough to turn a doubleplay or lacks the range to turn a routine grounder into an out. I saw enough of that with Keppinger in 2008 and I hope I never have to witness it again on a daily basis. Frazier's bat is good enough for third base or left.
    Last edited by OnBaseMachine; 12-02-2008 at 06:31 PM.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

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    Re: Hawaii Winter League top 20 prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by camisadelgolf View Post
    Well, my personal belief is that you can have a below-average defender at shortstop as long as his bat is good enough to compensate. Depending on how bad of a shortstop he is, it sounds like Frazier potentially has the bat to stick at shortstop.
    A guy's bat may be able to compensate in the run diufferential equation, but it never makes up for the damage it does to the pitchers. If the line-up can't survive with good defenders up the middle, then it needs better hitters at rhe corners.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

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    Re: Hawaii Winter League top 20 prospects

    Four corner spots and a possibility of Votto, Bruce, Alonso, Frazier, Francisco and maybe even Soto vying for those spots in as little as two years. Seems to me at least one and possibly two will be dealt sometime in the next two years to address the current lack of quality depth at the core SS, C & CF positions or for a quality starter.

    I believe that if the right target becomes along the first deal may well be this offseason (most likely Frazier or Francisco). Ironically though, it appears that the the deal might actually be for a veteran corner man (LF).

    Also, if Frazier remains in the organization this year, and continues his current success, I think there's a good chance this is EdE's last as a Red.

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    Re: Hawaii Winter League top 20 prospects

    When talking about Alonso being below average defensively does it just boil down to a lack of range or is there more to it?
    "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"

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    Re: Hawaii Winter League top 20 prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by bubbachunk View Post
    When talking about Alonso being below average defensively does it just boil down to a lack of range or is there more to it?
    His range isn't Casey-bad but he's no Votto over there. I think he has some trouble around the bag receiving the ball, especially on a hop. But to be fair I assume that off of just a few college games I saw, he misplayed 2 throws (maybe 3 I can't recall) and took one of them off his nose pretty hard. Other than that I have no clue what he may or may not be good or bad at.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

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    Re: Hawaii Winter League top 20 prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    I don't like my pitchers having to throw an extra 10-15 pitches in an inning because his shortstop isn't quick enough to turn a doubleplay or lacks the range to turn a routine grounder into an out. I saw enough of that with Keppinger in 2008 and I hope I never have to witness it again on a daily basis. Frazier's bat is good enough for third base or left.
    Obviously, I wouldn't want my pitcher having to throw an additional 10+ pitches per game as a result of having a shortstop with a lack of range, but I do want my pitcher to be able to pitch with a lead as often as possible. Theoretically, he needs to throw less pitches because the hitters would change their approach at the plate.

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    Re: Hawaii Winter League top 20 prospects

    I don't want to give an impression of Frazier as a bad defensive infielder. He just lacks that explosive first gear that you need at the shortstop position. He is listed at 6'3", 215. He is not going to be as quick at that size as a typical shortstop. I saw him at shortstop and love him as a prospect but would not want him at shortstop on a winning team.

    Good points are raised about a trade of a couple of these top prospects. Of course, the key for the Reds is to be smart enough to recognize which ones truly are blue-chippers among their prize group of 5-7 players and which ones are over-rated. They all are not going to be MLB stars. To many of us, they all look like solid prospects but teams that win are the teams that are smarter than the Baseball America rankings and keep the players that are bound for success and trade the players that are bound to become the Sean Burroughs of the baseball world. There are 100 Burroughs, Corey Patterson, Tyler Houston guys who were thought to be destined for greatness and were simply over-rated, over-hyped, or just mis-evaluated.

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    Re: Hawaii Winter League top 20 prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by redsof72 View Post
    I don't want to give an impression of Frazier as a bad defensive infielder. He just lacks that explosive first gear that you need at the shortstop position. He is listed at 6'3", 215. He is not going to be as quick at that size as a typical shortstop. I saw him at shortstop and love him as a prospect but would not want him at shortstop on a winning team.

    Good points are raised about a trade of a couple of these top prospects. Of course, the key for the Reds is to be smart enough to recognize which ones truly are blue-chippers among their prize group of 5-7 players and which ones are over-rated. They all are not going to be MLB stars. To many of us, they all look like solid prospects but teams that win are the teams that are smarter than the Baseball America rankings and keep the players that are bound for success and trade the players that are bound to become the Sean Burroughs of the baseball world. There are 100 Burroughs, Corey Patterson, Tyler Houston guys who were thought to be destined for greatness and were simply over-rated, over-hyped, or just mis-evaluated.
    Good post. Raw tools get way over hyped. Baseball skills get second measure. Great speed, quickness, power and great arm gets a guy a lot of oohs and ahs but none of it is much good at making contact with a 90+ mph fastball followed by a knee buckling curveball, or at deciding in a split millisecond to swing or not swing at a slider just off the corner and low or laying off that fat looking fastball up around your shoulders. Tools count a lot at the highest level but the skills to go with them are important too.


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