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Thread: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

  1. #256
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    It might not be the splashy way to build a team but things ARE improving under Jocketty.
    I agree with most everything else you posted, but I just wanted to note that this really is Jocketty's first acquistion. He got filler for Jr. and two arms dealing with injury/recovery for Dunn.

    Hernandez is the first guy he's acquired you can confidently assume will get a regular gig.
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  3. #257
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    Re: Trade Idea- Freel for Ramon Hernandez?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Unless he comes to Cincinnati and hits like its 2006 all over again....
    Then he will get 10 mil in arb and nobody is giving a 35 year old catcher that kind of money so back to the same boat that he will accept arb.

  4. #258
    Member wally post's Avatar
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Yeah, it's not a big slobberknocker, but he just won a poker hand with a pair of deuces.
    Wally likes it. Maybe his next deal will be a full house.

  5. #259
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Do 32 year old catchers recapture anything?

    No big loss, I guess. Still it would've been nice to shed Freel's contract without taking one on or get something with a better upside.
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle

  6. #260
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Trade Idea- Freel for Ramon Hernandez?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4256 Hits View Post
    Then he will get 10 mil in arb and nobody is giving a 35 year old catcher that kind of money so back to the same boat that he will accept arb.
    Well if he produces that well I don't think anyone will be complaining, even if we don't offer him arbitration.

  7. #261
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Will the trade of Freel earn Drew Stubbs some extra looks in spring training? I think both he and Dorn should get the chance to make the club out of spring training. I like that a lot better than going after any of the presumed CF free agents. I think that would be the best way to improve our OF depth, even if we assume we are still going after a run producer to play LF going forward.

  8. #262
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Equalized for Outs and assuming same offensive performance as 2008, Ramon Hernandez would project to be worth about 18 more Runs than Paul Bako. That might seem good, but I'd suggest only a dumb team would allow Paul Bako to play that much anyway. Ryan Hanigan likely projects a similar gain over Bako, but I think we pretty much knew that Jocketty, Baker, and Co. weren't going to go into 2009 with a rook at C, unless said rook was a big-time prospect (particularly defensively). That being said, Hanigan lacks power, but his IsoD skill set is legit and a combination of the he plus Hernandez may offer the Reds a league-average battery behind the plate offensively if things go right in 2009 (I HATE that qualifier).

    Hernandez speaks Spanish, so that's a good fit from a subjective value standpoint. He had the third-highest Caught Stealing rate in baseball for qualified Catchers in 2006. Unfortunately, that was the only season since 2003 in which he threw out more than 28.4% of basestealers. Since 2001, we've seen only 8 qualified Catcher seasons lower than Hernandez' 19.5% success rate from 2008. From a volume standpoint, only 6 qualified Catcher seasons have been posted during that same period allowing more than the 99 Stolen Bases credited to opponents while Hernandez was behind the plate in 2008. Get ready for a basepath barrage from opponents, folks. Just a warning.

    Now, onto what was given up...

    Thanks for the memories, Mr. Freel. You're one of those little gems teams sometimes find right before they're about to hit their age-prime seasons who've always been undervalued, but who also have skill sets that project and play with max effort. Had you ever actually been able to control your body while playing with said max effort, you'd have been able to avoid many injuries to both yourself, others, and outfield walls (ballparks are people too). However, without max effort you also wouldn't have been able to drive some teams mad on the basepaths after you avoided getting picked off yet again. And I would have missed one of the best catches ever and no one would have ever had a chance to place a baseball previously on the ground into your glove while you unconsciously recorded one of the funniest (and scary) Outs ever.

    Justin Turner is one of those guys. MiLB career stats look very good for a 2B (.310 BA/.377 OBP/.445 SLG), but his only special season was 231 AB at Billings in 2006 at age 21. After that, he's been flirting (slightly above and over) with the .800 OPS level through Chatt this year. He's 24 now (as of November 23rd). I don't see anything extremely wrong with Justin Turner.

    Brandon Waring strikes out a lot. His IsoD isn't great. He's likely not a 3B. Ok, and that could be a breaking point when it comes to his trade value. Yet, the guy who possesses the most natural power in the Reds system isn't the guy wrongly ranked on both Redszone's and John Sickels' top 10 lists (Juan Francisco, who also isn't likely a 3B in training). It's Brandon Waring.

    The Reds just gave up two prospects and one of them was most likely included only to mitigate the salary inequality between Freel and Hernandez. Let's think about that for a second. The Reds just got a player who projects slightly below-average offensively, below-average defensively, they didn't get any salary relief, and they dealt two prospects who probably represent more than what they'd receive even if they ended up receiving picks if Hernandez leaves.

    These are not deals I like because they generally hinge on the acquisition somehow becoming much better than he'll likely be. There are other more creative options available so strike this one up as a negative. Might not be the popular position, but it is what it is.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

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  9. #263
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    The Reds just got a player who projects slightly below-average offensively, below-average defensively, they didn't get any salary relief, and they dealt two prospects
    That about sums it up. But they get that production for about $4M (RH-RF's salary) and they get it from a more valuable position. Overall it's not a "news alert" moment but it is alright calculus.
    Last edited by jojo; 12-09-2008 at 10:01 PM.
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  10. #264
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    Re: Trade Idea- Freel for Ramon Hernandez?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Well if he produces that well I don't think anyone will be complaining, even if we don't offer him arbitration.
    I agree completely; I like the trade I just don't think anyone should think there is any chance the Reds are going to get comp picks out of Hernandez.

  11. #265
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    Re: Trade Idea- Freel for Ramon Hernandez?

    Trent's got quotes from the GMs and Dusty. I think you'll find it ever so slightly more coherent than Fay's:

    Reds G.M. Walt Jocketty

    "This was a trade that Andy and I have been working on for quite a while and finally got it done late last night. We set our off season objectives, one of the big things for us was to try and acquire a quality catcher. We felt there was something that we were lacking last year. We have a young catcher in Ryan Hanigan who I think will help a lot this year and learn with Ramon Hernandez.

    "But for us Ramon was a perfect fit for our club because he provides good leadership, got very good reports that sent several scouts out to watch him this year, and he provides good defense, handles a staff well, and will give us a good offense, and in our park, we think he'll have a very good year.

    "It's something that we're excited about. I talked to Ramon a little bit ago. Dusty spoke with him and he's very excited to come over to the Reds and see how everything works out.

    "But the other thing for us, in trading Ryan Freel, Ryan was hurt quite a bit this year, and when I spoke to him, I told him that unfortunately I didn't get a chance to see the real Ryan Freel play this year, but I expect him to do well for the Orioles and he'll be a big part of their success this year.

    "And the two young guys we gave up were very difficult to give up, and as good a scouting director and farm director we have in Chris Buckley and Ryan Reynolds, they always hate to give up the younger players, but they understand that it's important for us to improve at the Major League level and try and win up there.

    "The Orioles are getting three very good players and quality people, and in return we're getting a big fit for us. We think Ramon Hernandez is the right piece to help improve our club for next year."

    * On Hernandez's frustrations on the field last year: "Yeah, that was part of our report that we got from our scouts, and not from just one. We did notice that they had seen him in the past and saw him again this year and felt that there was probably some level of frustration that he was experiencing, and we talked about it.

    "I did some research on it with other people that I know that have had him and got great reports, so we do think that a change of scenery will help him immensely. We've got a pretty good pitching staff, and he's a guy that I think will help develop that staff, work well with the staff, and I think he'll have renewed energy, or hope that he will, and I know Dusty talked to him a little bit about that today.

    "We think that a change of scenery will help him a lot."

    Reds manager Dusty Baker

    "The Ramon that I know was in Oakland as a young player. I saw him handle that staff up there in Oakland when I was with the Giants. We played him a number of times in spring training and in the Bay Bridge series and inner league play. So I think he's going to be perfect for our team. We have a young staff, and he has taught some very good pitchers and very good staffs in the past."

    Orioles GM Andy McPhail

    "Ryan Freel, if any of you have suffered through my talks in Baltimore, you've heard a lot about effort, energy and enthusiasm. Those are the three things as a franchise we want to instill in our players. It is hard to think of a poster child that more represents those things for a Major League player than Ryan Freel, so we were excited to have him introduce a right handed bat that can play some center field and the out fields and give Luke Scott a platoon in left. And then two infield prospects who we like that we need to add inventory and depth at that position are in our franchise.

    "It was a delight to deal with Walt. I've never been quite chiselled so much as I was with Walt over a period of grinding me over what should have been announced days ago, but Walt insisted on a pound of flesh and five, which he got. But I do think this is a trade that makes perfect sense for both franchises, and we're delighted to have it.

    "The last thing I will say is I know I've watched Dusty Baker at work, and I know this is the perfect kind of player that Dusty is going to have a tremendous impact on, and I think you're going to see Ramon give quite an offensive year in a ballpark that is really favorable towards him."

    * On Freel's health: "sA it turned out, Walt and I had been talking about this trade, but in the period where we were talking about the trade Wayne Krivsky joined our organization as a special assistant. He comes with a great deal of information about that franchise. He and obviously our doctors and trainers certified to where Ryan was physically. I talked to Ryan today, as did Dave Trembley, and he said he's running 100 percent, feels good, ready to go, our doctors vetted his condition and are comfortable that he's ready to go, and we're delighted and excited about having him."
    http://www.thelotd.com/ctrent/blog

    I had completely forgot that Krivsky is now with the Orioles' organization. I'm sure that came in quite handy for McPhail.
    Last edited by Screwball; 12-09-2008 at 10:18 PM.

  12. #266
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    I am pleased with the move.

    I like that Freel, his contract, injuries and maybe a something that might have been going on behind the scenes are gone.

    That the catching is shored up and that we might not see Valentine back which is moving forward in my mind. I know it is an intangible, maybe not even that but, I wanted to see some of the past moved that was a part of the losing atmosphere with the Reds and this potentially helps in that direction forward.

    I especially like the fact that Jocketty has still held on to the pitching and pitching prospects and still has room and chips to work with, leaving him options with trading chips and or cash to work with.

    I think that this catcher can help the offense a bit, over a Ross, and certainly a Bako, in that we often seen them not come through and this guy might add a win or two by coming through where they wouldn’t have and maybe taking away an easy out to make things less easy on the other side.

  13. #267
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    A few observations

    Not thrilled that the Reds gave up Turner in this deal, I liked him very much as a future Red. And Waring, who wasn't very hyped this year, also had value.

    Still, hard to imagine the O's would have made the trade straight up for Freel.

    Reds strength these days is in the minor leaguers, the prospects, so I'd expect them to play a big role in any trades this off season. Reds don't have a lot of major league talent to trade.

    Economics obviously had a big role. Reds probably gave up more talent because they received money to offset the salary difference.

    Not too many starting catchers out there for trade. This was a tough find for the Reds, to fill an obvious hole. And they paid a price giving up two pretty good prospects.

  14. #268
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    I was pleased the day the Reds picked up Freel.

    He maximized his potential initially and the Reds now have turned the pickup into a stop gap starting catcher. Not bad considering the initial cost/risk.

  15. #269
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Like I said before, it is a good deal for both sides. No longterm commitment moneywise yet it solidifies the position.

    So Walt, about that righthanded hitter for the middle of the order......
    If you think small, you'll go nowhere in life.

  16. #270
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by Spring~Fields View Post
    I am pleased with the move.

    I like that Freel, his contract, injuries and maybe a something that might have been going on behind the scenes are gone.

    That the catching is shored up and that we might not see Valentine back which is moving forward in my mind.
    I see this a lot. Forget who we add, the important thing is making our un-favorite players go away.
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle


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