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Thread: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

  1. #301
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: Trade Idea- Freel for Ramon Hernandez?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krusty View Post
    Do you think they can sign Hairston with what they were paying Freel?
    Yes they can. If we want him. My feling is that we're aiming higher at this point. Injury-prone outfielders are a dime a dozen regardless of how they perform when they are healthy. My guess is that we are looking elsewhere. Just a hunch.
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  3. #302
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by SMcGavin View Post
    I will be really suprised if Hernandez has that line in 09. BABIP data has him pretty unlucky last year, and even if you don't buy that he's coming over from the AL East where the other four teams in his division had ERA+s of 122, 116, 115, and 104.
    Favorite stat of the night. I didn't realize just how tough the pitching staffs of the other teams in the AL East had last year...
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  4. #303
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Trade Idea- Freel for Ramon Hernandez?

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRedsFan View Post
    Yes they can. If we want him. My feling is that we're aiming higher at this point. Injury-prone outfielders are a dime a dozen regardless of how they perform when they are healthy. My guess is that we are looking elsewhere. Just a hunch.
    I think he fits what they want in a UT player, he can play a little SS and a little CF and hit at the top of the lineup. I like Hairston when he is on and healthy, he plays the game with intelligence and fire and isn't really awful in any one way (sans his arm).

    That said I kinda hope they don't get him so it would then force them to get a good SS who can hit at the top of the lineup. Ya know they are hedging their SS & CF bets with Hairston, it's obvious and so is the fact that they want both positions filled.
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    How does Camden Yards profile as far as being a Hitter's/Pitcher's park?

    His previous two stops (Oakland & San Diego) were both pitcher's parks, IIRC.

  6. #305
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by corkedbat View Post
    How does Camden Yards profile as far as being a Hitter's/Pitcher's park?

    His previous two stops (Oakland & San Diego) were both pitcher's parks, IIRC.
    Camden usually plays slightly more as a hitters park IIRC but close to nuetral.

    Camden
    Field dimensions Left Field - 333 ft (101.5 m)
    Left-Center - 364 ft (110.9 m)
    Left-Center (deep) - 410 ft (125 m)
    Center Field - 400 ft (121.9 m) (Not posted)
    Right-Center - 373 ft (113.7 m)
    Right Field - 318 ft (96.9 m)
    GABP
    Field dimensions Left Field - 328 ft (100 m)
    Left-Center - 379 ft (116 m)
    Center Field - 404 ft (123 m)
    Right-Center - 370 ft (113 m)
    Right Field - 325 ft (99 m)
    Backstop - 55 ft (17 m)
    Hernandez hit chart
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  7. #306
    Boom Goes the Dynamite Screwball's Avatar
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by corkedbat View Post
    How does Camden Yards profile as far as being a Hitter's/Pitcher's park?

    His previous two stops (Oakland & San Diego) were both pitcher's parks, IIRC.
    Over the last 5 years ('04-'08), it's kinda been all over the place. It's had overall PF's of 1.077 (7th highest), 0.876 (28th highest), 0.985 (17th highest), 1.109 (6th highest), and 1.051 (10th) from '04-'08 respectively. The last couple years it's given a pretty significant edge to the hitter. Yet when Hernandez had his best year as an Oriole ('06 - 111 OPS+) Camden was giving a slight edge to the pitcher.

    Not sure what to make of this, but hopefully the watered down NL pitching wil give him a boost, because it looks as though Camden serves up the longball as frequently as GABP.

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    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by Screwball View Post
    Over the last 5 years ('04-'08), it's kinda been all over the place. It's had overall PF's of 1.077 (7th highest), 0.876 (28th highest), 0.985 (17th highest), 1.109 (6th highest), and 1.051 (10th) from '04-'08 respectively. The last couple years it's given a pretty significant edge to the hitter. Yet when Hernandez had his best year as an Oriole ('06 - 111 OPS+) Camden was giving a slight edge to the pitcher.

    Not sure what to make of this, but hopefully the watered down NL pitching wil give him a boost, because it looks as though Camden serves up the longball as frequently as GABP.
    Screwball, got a link? I need to add that to my list of references, it's one I don't have.
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  9. #308
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Probably the last one in but here goes.

    In a thin catching market I think Hernandez is ok. I think the combination of the GABP, the NL Central and a little better luck will improve his offensive numbers to the point of being better than average for a catcher. His defense is only fair, but that is gold glove caliber compared with just about anything we've had around here for a long time. The legacy of poor receivers in Cincy includes Eddie Taubensee (a DH back there), Jason Larue (good arm, but I didn't like anything else about him defensively), Paul Bako (A "defensive specialist" who seemed below average in every way from what I saw) and the worst of the bunch David Ross. Hernandez will look pretty good in comparison if you look beyond the Caught Stealing numbers. He won't put up Larue or Ross numbers in that area, but he'll be a better receiver (more important IMO) and better hitter.

    As for what the Reds gave up, I think Freel could be missed more than we think. I was pretty early to the party in calling Freel way over-rated by some and his running game (or better termed his little leagueesque get caught stealing and picked-off a lot game) was a real negative the last few years. But, he did have genuine utility in his abilities to play a decent OF, fill in elsewhere and above all get on base. The Reds would have probably done ok with a Dickerson/Freel platoon leading off in CF, so unless they bring in a clear upgrade that pushes Dickerson to the bench, I think they'll be hard pressed to find a better RH half for that job. Freel probably wasn't worth what he was going to cost the Reds in 2008, but he was the best guy on the roster for that role.

    The rest of the deal is pretty contingent on how much money the Reds got in exchange for selling off some guys to make up the dollar difference. If its $3 Million, I think the Reds did well. If its only $1 Million, not so much. 3B is a crowded spot and Brandon Waring was far down the depth chart there. He has enough power to be interesting in a lets see how he develops kind of way, but IMO he's a long shot to ever be a big leaguer. Turner is a 2B who seems like he's a decent defender who can hit at the spot. The Reds bench and upper minors is filled with guys who the Reds hope can play an adequate 2B (Keppinger, Rosales, Valaika, Richar, Frazier maybe even Wilkin Castillo) but the Reds probably just dealt the only one who we know really can. He's still far from a sure thing and has less upside than many of the other prospects, but Turner can be a decent major league role player some day IMO. If the Reds got $3 Million it was probably worth dealing Turner to fill the catcher spot while hanging onto some payroll flexibility. If it was only a million, I'd probably hang on to Turner and just pay the extra million. The Reds will spend that much on bonuses for lesser players in the draft or some international signing.

    In any event, I think the major league team is improved by this deal and the guys given up probably don't remove any of the team's trading power. I'd have preferred hanging on to Turner and dealing some one who is a lesser guy like Richar or Keppinger, but its ok. Decent deal on the whole.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

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  10. #309
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    You want to know the beauty of all this is? Of all the trade rumors and proposals that occurs on this site, did anyone actually mentioned Hernandez as a possible catcher for the Reds?

    I'm waiting for Uncle Walt to knock me on my butt with that righthanded hitter for the middle of the order.
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  11. #310
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by Krusty View Post
    You want to know the beauty of all this is? Of all the trade rumors and proposals that occurs on this site, did anyone actually mentioned Hernandez as a possible catcher for the Reds?

    I'm waiting for Uncle Walt to knock me on my butt with that righthanded hitter for the middle of the order.
    Several people did. We've been talking about him since last spring. Over that time he's gone from a guy we really wanted to a guy who we were lukewarm to. I think most prefer a long term solution. I generally hate giving up anything for stopgaps, but in this situation the guys the Reds gave up didn't cause much pain so it was a good deal.

    I hope SS is next.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  12. #311
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Several people did. We've been talking about him since last spring. Over that time he's gone from a guy we really wanted to a guy who we were lukewarm to. I think most prefer a long term solution. I generally hate giving up anything for stopgaps, but in this situation the guys the Reds gave up didn't cause much pain so it was a good deal.

    I hope SS is next.

    They did? I must have been sleeping on the computer. Anyways if you want young talent, you have to give up young talent in return......see Hamilton for Volquez. Still, a righthanded hitter for the middle of the order, leadoff hitter and lefty bullpen remains on the list. I still think the Dye for Bailey deal will still go down.
    If you think small, you'll go nowhere in life.

  13. #312
    Boom Goes the Dynamite Screwball's Avatar
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    Screwball, got a link? I need to add that to my list of references, it's one I don't have.
    Yeah, sure. Here ya go: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/...or?season=2008

    Very handy site, esp. when discussing trades.

  14. #313
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    (*This part is opinion*)
    Not too mention that Hernandez could reasonably be expected to have better offensive and defensive #'s here with a better staff throwing to him, the park, playing for a future contract, possibly playing for a winning team (depending on other moves) etc. It's interesting that people get on Hernandez for his defensive stats but fail to mention that his decline was right in line with the decline of the staff he was working with. Pitchers do have an effect on their catchers defensive #'s.
    The Reds basically got an aging catcher with declining offensive skills (Orioles Park isn't exactly Petco) and a defensive game that basically looks to be declining faster than the price of homes near a GM plant. There probably is some room for upside with his bat though. Mostly though, the Reds get a recognizable name to stick behind the plate. Given lousy defense is more like internal hemorrhaging than a Freddy Kruger moment, I suspect many will be happy if he hits .270 and he actually catches throws to the plate (in other words some might think this deal is much more meaningful than I think it probably is).

    This isn't a criticism-the calculus basically works on this one IMHO (the '09 roster is likely improved though the question is how much?)-but what happened to a new found commitment to improving the defense (kicked the tires on Dye and pulled the trigger on Hernandez)?
    Last edited by jojo; 12-10-2008 at 08:41 AM.
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  15. #314
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Nice job, Walt.

    Now, go get us a SS, a big bat in LF and a right-handed hitting OF to team with Dickerson in CF and the Red might actually be in the running for a playoff spot.

    Rem

  16. #315
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    This isn't a criticism-the calculus basically works on this one IMHO (the '09 roster is likely improved though the question is how much?)-but what happened to a new found commitment to improving the defense (kicked the tires on Dye and pulled the trigger on Hernandez)?
    I don't know the answer to the question I've got. Trades don't happen in a vacuuum. Given the market, who was available at a reasonable price that would meet the defensive criterion you posit? Looking at the free agent class, every catcher there is 31 or older (Josh Bard and Michael Barrett are the youngest at 31 and 32 respectively).

    On a trade standpoint, who was available without giving up more than we wanted to give? Again, I don't know the answer to that question myself.

    Clearly moving Freel's contract filling a position of need is a good one. Doesn't necessarily help with the win/loss bottom line, but it does eliminate a payroll issue. That's not a big plus, IMO, but it doesn't hurt.

    The hope is (and I acknowledge it's only that for now) is that greener grass will give him a boost offensively. As with any player coming over, that remains to be seen.

    On the catching side, the only possible plus is rather intangible. Will he be better as a receiver for our staff? Will he call a good game and give that extra help to make our pitchers better? I guess there's some metric somewhere that can analyze that, but again we'll have to see.

    Jocketty has filled one need, and I'm not negative on the move, but the positive is just slight. Time to move forward and address the other needs during the off-season.
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