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Thread: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

  1. #316
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    The Reds basically got an aging catcher with declining offensive skills (Orioles Park isn't exactly Petco) and a defensive game that basically looks to be declining faster than the price of homes near a GM plant. There probably is some room for upside with his bat though. Mostly though, the Reds get a recognizable name to stick behind the plate. Given lousy defense is more like internal hemorrhaging than a Freddy Kruger moment, I suspect many will be happy if he hits .270 and he actually catches throws to the plate (in other words some might think this deal is much more meaningful than I think it probably is).

    This isn't a criticism-the calculus basically works on this one IMHO (the '09 roster is likely improved though the question is how much?)-but what happened to a new found commitment to improving the defense (kicked the tires on Dye and pulled the trigger on Hernandez)?
    What has been clearly explained by both principals in the deal -- Jocketty and McPhail -- is that Hernandez may benefit from a change of scenery. He was not real motivated in Baltimore in 08, apparently, so it remains to be seen to what extent his performance, particularly on the defensive side, is attributable to declining skills. Factor in that he'll be playing for a contract and I think one can be reasonably optimistic that Hernandez will be better in 09.
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  3. #317
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    I don't know if this has been mentioned here or not, but another thing to consider regarding the SB/CS issue with Hernandez is that he had a staff in Baltimore with low strikeout totals. The leader of the staff had what, 120 K's (Guthrie)?

    With the Reds, that has many hard throwing, bat-missing pitchers, wouldn't that take care of some of that issue?

  4. #318
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    What has been clearly explained by both principals in the deal -- Jocketty and McPhail -- is that Hernandez may benefit from a change of scenery. He was not real motivated in Baltimore in 08, apparently, so it remains to be seen to what extent his performance, particularly on the defensive side, is attributable to declining skills. Factor in that he'll be playing for a contract and I think one can be reasonably optimistic that Hernandez will be better in 09.
    Why does his motivation improve by becoming a Red? Also, while he is in a contract year but he's also a year older. I don't think it's legitimate to throw out his numbers last year and project him like he deserves an attitude mulligan. Even if it was more attitude than aging (which I think is a tough sell given what we know about catchers), it's all part of his history.
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  5. #319
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Well, if I remember right, he missed some time injured in '07, but I don't remember if it was something that might have effected his throwing. But most of us could probably steal bases off Daniel Cabrera, no matter who was catching him.
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  6. #320
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    I like this trade quite a bit actually. I think getting out from Freel's contract was a big bonus. When Freel is on what he brings to the table is important, he just hasn't been on for much since he signed his new deal. Even when Freel was on he needed to tone down his aggressiveness in order to maximize his productivity. Freel said that was impossible to do.

    Freel has shown over the course of a few years that he isn't a starter. His body can't handle his style of play. That means he becomes a utility player, a valuable utility player, but a $4.5M utility player. Freel represents the type of player who should be cut loose when his contract comes due and replaced by someone in the minors. He is the type of guy who you let someone else take the gamble with.

    Freel makes somewhat sense for Baltimore if he can maintain his .350 OBP. If he does the O's can DH him from time to time to save on his wear and tear. It may just be the best case scenario for Freel. The Reds on the other hand get a position of need in Hernandez for basically the same salary as Freel. It allows the Reds to take a better look at Hannigan under less pressure. If Hannigan proves he can't be the #1 catcher the Reds have the opportunity to bring Hernandez back, albeit at a high price.

    Turner and Warring to me are two throw ins. Warring is probably 3rd or 4th on the Reds minor league 3b depth chart. I would move Fraizer, Soto, and Francisco ahead of Warring at that position. Turner may have some potential but he isn't moving Phillips aside and cant play SS. He is the type of minor leaguer you should be able to replace for cheap.

  7. #321
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Looks like that the Orioles farm system is ranking middle or lower depending on how the darts fly.

    The Reds basically gave up a spare part & couple of B prospects for a starter at a position that was in need.

    It might be a long term issue, if only Waring & Turner turn out to be studs.

    Just a basic roll the dice deal. Typical Jocketty.
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  8. #322
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Why does his motivation improve by becoming a Red? Also, while he is in a contract year but he's also a year older. I don't think it's legitimate to throw out his numbers last year and project him like he deserves an attitude mulligan. Even if it was more attitude than aging (which I think is a tough sell given what we know about catchers), it's all part of his history.
    No doubt that coming off a 133 game season and being 1 year older Hernandez could be a candidate to slip. I'd like to see him used in a kind of platoon with Hanigan, maybe 70/30 or 60/40 so that both will stay fresh. I do think it's significant that he's playing for a new deal/option for big money -- I put more credence in that than in his being a few months older than his strong 08 2nd half.

    If he does slip markedly, they aren't on the hook for much. This is low-risk, pretty high reward.


    Why does his motivation improve by becoming a Red?
    He's out of Baltimore. Word was he did not have a great relationship with Tremblay.

    There was no need to go out and get a defensively oriented catcher. Hanigan showed well behind the plate -- and Hernandez is probably in the realm of average. Far more important to get a guy who can also hit, not just for the everyday lineup but for the bench when Hanigan plays (provided they carry Castillo too).
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  9. #323
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Reds might have to use a no-hit shortstop and couldn't afford to give up the catcher spot in the lineup, too.

    in spite of the overpriced market, WJ got a need catcher fairly painlessly.

    Turner/Freel are gamers. Walt tends to trade for guys that are supposedly not gamers. seems to work for him.

  10. #324
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    I think getting a major league catcher for Freel - who was supposedly untradeable - is a good deal. Hernandez and Hanigan will split the playing time probably about 70-30. Hernandez' contract ends after this year and the Reds have a full season to see if Hanigan can be the #1 catcher in 2010.

    I wouldn't say signing Hariston is imperative but with Freel gone, he's no longer redundant.
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  11. #325
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    I think getting a major league catcher for Freel - who was supposedly untradeable - is a good deal. Hernandez and Hanigan will split the playing time probably about 70-30. Hernandez' contract ends after this year and the Reds have a full season to see if Hanigan can be the #1 catcher in 2010.

    I wouldn't say signing Hariston is imperative but with Freel gone, he's no longer redundant.
    Chip that last point is a real key to this deal. What Jocketty did in one trade was help the minor league logjam at third base and open up the better of two options in house (well, if he can get Hairston signed) to play OF, as well as add the catching help that was needed and he did it by adding a guy who can be a plus bat at his position.

  12. #326
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton View Post
    Reds might have to use a no-hit shortstop and couldn't afford to give up the catcher spot in the lineup, too.

    in spite of the overpriced market, WJ got a need catcher fairly painlessly.

    Turner/Freel are gamers. Walt tends to trade for guys that are supposedly not gamers. seems to work for him.
    The veteran catching market actually appears to be more of a buyer's market so far.
    "Reality tells us there are no guarantees. Except that some day Jon Lester will be on that list of 100-game winners." - Peter Gammons

  13. #327
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Hairston's 2008 better be for real, minus the injuries part. He'll be needed as the RH platoon partner with Dickerson. Really, I think he is Freel-lite. a bit more brittle and far less balls to the wall.

    I'm really hoping that unless Jocketty gets a top SS that Janish has a ridiculous ST. AGon probably won't be ready, and the Reds need more than "Fall Down" Kepp at SS.

    If I hear 1 rumor about Juan Pierre I swear to god I'll become a Cubs Fan. LF is a serious hole at this point. MAYBE Alonzo or Frazier tears up ST and forces the Reds hand. Personally, I'm rooting for Dorn.

    Secretly, ok no so secretly I notice Adam Dunn is available.
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  14. #328
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    If I hear 1 rumor about Juan Pierre I swear to god I'll become a Cubs Fan.


    Easy there, killer. You survived the likes of Juan Castro, Corey Patterson and Paul Bako. You can survive the Juan Pierre era too.

  15. #329
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by BRM View Post


    Easy there, killer. You survived the likes of Juan Castro, Corey Patterson and Paul Bako. You can survive the Juan Pierre era too.
    I'm not joking. I'll jump. I'm a huge Rich Harden fan, and I actually have a cubs hat that I usually just abuse.

    I hate Dustyball. I really, really do.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  16. #330
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    I'm not joking. I'll jump. I'm a huge Rich Harden fan, and I actually have a cubs hat that I usually just abuse.

    I hate Dustyball. I really, really do.
    You have to keep posting here though, even if you jump ship....which you won't.


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