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Thread: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

  1. #241
    Member SMcGavin's Avatar
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    My biggest concern remains our OF situation. I would've made Castillo my #2 catcher and focused elsewhere. I'm concerned that we're frittering away the room we have to maneuver and will be unable to do anything impactful with LF. As I said, deck chairs.
    Wilkin Castillo is probably a worse hitter than Paul Bako. He's got a career .633 OPS in AAA, and all but 40 of those ABs were compiled last year at age 24. What happens if Hanigan's not who you think he is? Or if he gets hurt? No way can you go into the season with just Hanigan and Castillo, that's asking for disaster.

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  3. #242
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    1. Making Castillo the #2 catcher leaves you with two HUGE question marks at one of the most important positions on the field, not to mention most likely well below average production.
    Fair enough, I probably wouldn't be comfortable with that combo. But there are a handful of mediocre backup catchers out there who we could sign for less than the salary we took on and we would not have had to trade anybody. I guess it comes down to what sort of offensive numbers you expect from Hernandez; you're basically paying for the outside shot that an aging, declining catcher recaptures his youth.

    2. Freel and Co. were not going to be primary trade chips to focus anywhere else. There is no reason why you can't "focus elsewhere" beginning now.[/QUOTE]

    Nearly every trade needs bit parts. I won't sweat the loss of any of those 3, but that doesn't make them completely valueless. I'd hate for the Reds to drop out of the bidding or a trade for a real impact player because of the money we took on here.

    I guess the fact that I keep posting makes it sounds like I'm more "upset" than I am. This is more of a verbose shrug than anything else. I guess more than anything else, I'm just hoping that this the tip of the iceberg instead of another "hey look -- we brought in some proven vets who know how to win!" type of offseason.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  4. #243
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    This isn't a sexy move, but I think it does improve the team. I think it puts our catching situation at at least league average, which is a huge improvement from last year. Overall, it's a good start.

    I really am going to miss Freel though. I really did love his game, at least leading up to 2007. I do think his best days are done and he's reached his peak, but that guy was a lot of fun to watch while he was a Red.

    What's next though? That's what I want to know.

  5. #244
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    I'm not up in arms or anything, I just think we're doing what fans of a team always do when their team makes a trade: playing up the value upside of the guy(s) they got and diminishing the value of the guy(s) they gave up.
    I don't disagree with that completely in that it's typical of most fans to do this, not so much here.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    The values of the sides here based on reasonable projections are close enough that it simply comes down to how the guys play in 2009 and if the prospects develop. My biggest concern remains our OF situation. I would've made Castillo my #2 catcher and focused elsewhere.
    If Freel would have gotten anywhere near 450 PA's here we were doomed anyway. Freel has no upside going there either. Hernandez does have upside coming here. A Castillo/Hanigan combo is arguably no better than a Ross/Bako one. An Hernandez/Hanigan has a good chance too be marginally better while spending only a few million and no major prospects.

    In this case I'd say it's reasonable for us to assume we got a deal that suits us pretty well without losing anything of substance.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

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  6. #245
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    In this case I'd say it's reasonable for us to assume we got a deal that suits us pretty well without losing anything of substance.
    I'd think that's a pretty accurate conclusion.

  7. #246
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Wilkin Castillo, noy including the fact he can't hit, would in no way hold up behind the plate for an extended period of time. He's not big enough. As a third catcher he'd be fine, but nobody wants the Reds carrying three catchers.

  8. #247
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Nearly every trade needs bit parts. I won't sweat the loss of any of those 3, but that doesn't make them completely valueless. I'd hate for the Reds to drop out of the bidding or a trade for a real impact player because of the money we took on here.

    I guess the fact that I keep posting makes it sounds like I'm more "upset" than I am. This is more of a verbose shrug than anything else. I guess more than anything else, I'm just hoping that this the tip of the iceberg instead of another "hey look -- we brought in some proven vets who know how to win!" type of offseason.
    I don't disagree with your last sentence.

    As far as the beginning of your post (and the end of mine), Freel, Turner, and Waring were nearly valueless. The former had arguably negative value due to his contract and the latter two guys were replacement-level prospects. You can sub guys like Rosales, Henry, Cumberland, and many, many others and get the same net result. By most accounts, the Reds took on $2MM in this deal. I hardly believe that will prevent them from making further trades.
    Go BLUE!!!

  9. #248
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Nearly every trade needs bit parts. I won't sweat the loss of any of those 3, but that doesn't make them completely valueless. I'd hate for the Reds to drop out of the bidding or a trade for a real impact player because of the money we took on here.

    I guess the fact that I keep posting makes it sounds like I'm more "upset" than I am. This is more of a verbose shrug than anything else. I guess more than anything else, I'm just hoping that this the tip of the iceberg instead of another "hey look -- we brought in some proven vets who know how to win!" type of offseason.
    The Reds didn't take on any money.

  10. #249
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    My biggest concern remains our OF situation. I would've made Castillo my #2 catcher and focused elsewhere. I'm concerned that we're frittering away the room we have to maneuver and will be unable to do anything impactful with LF. As I said, deck chairs.
    C, SS, OF, bullpen, possibly a 5th starter

    Jocketty's got to do all of it this winter, at least if he wants to turn around this club. As membengal noted, this may finally be the winter where we get to judge the totality of the moves rather than the one-off impact of any single move.

    He's managed to grab what might be a solid catcher for three sub-prime trading chits and an extra $1M. That shouldn't prevent him from doing anything else. In fact, I'd say this is the exact kind of trade you make when you've got other, more pressing priorities.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  11. #250
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    Re: Trade Idea- Freel for Ramon Hernandez?

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    I'd prefer to hang onto Heisey as I think he could develop into a decent major leaguer. I'd offer Freel + Watson and see if they bite. If they absolutely insist on Heisey being in the deal then I may bite, especially if he really is a Type A FA.
    It doesn't matter if he is a type A because there is no way the Reds will offer arb because if they do they are on the hook for atleast 80% of 8.5 million. There is no way he would get close to that as a FA so he would accept arb.

  12. #251
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    I'd hate for the Reds to drop out of the bidding or a trade for a real impact player because of the money we took on here.
    We tok on $1M for 2009....

    I doubt that will be the diffeence between any impact players.

  13. #252
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Jocketty did a few things:

    He brought in a guy who can catch and with Hanigan that gives the Reds the best catching they've had in a long time. A very long time.

    He evidently didn't take on payroll...all options there remain open.

    He moved a guy who has proved he can't stay healthy and was a big - unproductive- salary.

    He opened up the third base logjam in the minors a wee bit and did it by dealing the least likely to succeed of the third base prospects.

    He added a valuable piece without touching anything resembling a major chip.

    This is a good trade all around. It might not be the splashy way to build a team but things ARE improving under Jocketty. Deadwood's getting cleared out, additions that make sense. Just have some patience and some trust, he'll get this turned around.

  14. #253
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Trade Idea- Freel for Ramon Hernandez?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4256 Hits View Post
    It doesn't matter if he is a type A because there is no way the Reds will offer arb because if they do they are on the hook for atleast 80% of 8.5 million. There is no way he would get close to that as a FA so he would accept arb.
    Unless he comes to Cincinnati and hits like its 2006 all over again....

  15. #254
    GR8NESS WMR's Avatar
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Let me just type that I'm perhaps most happy with this deal in that we were able to find a taker for Freel and his contract. Adding in that we capably filled a need is just gravy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Calipari is not, nor has he ever been accused or "caught", cheating. He himself turned in one of his players (Camby) for dealing with an agent to get one Final Four overturned. The other is all on the NCAA and Rose. (IF Rose cheated.)
    "Cheering for Kentucky is like watching Star Wars and hoping Darth Vader chokes an ewok"


  16. #255
    GR8NESS WMR's Avatar
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    Re: Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool View Post
    Depends on the SS.

    If it's Janish, then Hernandez hits 7th.
    If there's a SS playing anywhere on the field, the SS bats second.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Calipari is not, nor has he ever been accused or "caught", cheating. He himself turned in one of his players (Camby) for dealing with an agent to get one Final Four overturned. The other is all on the NCAA and Rose. (IF Rose cheated.)
    "Cheering for Kentucky is like watching Star Wars and hoping Darth Vader chokes an ewok"



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