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Thread: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

  1. #46
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    I'm not quite sure what you mean by the sentence before last but ok. I understand your point but we'll just have to agree to disagree on whether or not he can maintain a .300 BA, he doesn't K much and he hits with pretty good power, not sure what his LD% is but I'm guessing it's been pretty good. I'm not necc. sold on him being the #4 hitter but I tend to lean to yes he can. But more than that for the dollar amount that he alledgedly has been attached to (usually much less than 5 mill per) I am going after him strong to see if he can be more than what I should expect.
    What I bolded is precisely what my last sentence foreshadowed.

    You see, people love to give players like Rivera chances because they're cheap and they see some false hope with their potential. It doesn't matter if that player is 30-years-old with an extreme high-risk (or just plain bad) playing record. They say "well he's only a million or two, he's cheap, so why not?"

    And then what happens?

    They play. They stink. People are shocked. SHOCKED! (not me, but they are). That player keeps playing. He also keeps stinking. Then he may be "shut down for a few weeks" on the DL to hide from stinking even more. Then he's rehabbed. Then he comes back again and gets more playing time again. And guess what? He stinks again.

    It's one big pile of stink that keeps growing because he's a veteran on a big league contract.

    Before you know it that player has pitched 78.1 innings and been absolutely devastating to your pitching staff. Or he's gone to the plate 392 times, many of those in the leadoff slot with a terrible on-base percentage. Or he's caught 96 games behind the plate and hit worse than a pitcher from May through the end of the season.

    And this all happens because the Reds bring in a "veteran" that management thinks has proven something when in reality all that veteran has proven is that he just isn't worth a casual look, much less piles of playing time.

    Exhibit A: Josh Fogg (boy, the Josh Fogg discussion was exactly like this - how do people like him now?)
    Exhibit B: Corey Patterson
    Exhibit C: Paul Bako

    And that's just from 2008.

    I'm tired of going down those roads. I want the road with actual, consistent run production. That's the road that teams take when they head to the playoffs.
    Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012

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  3. #47
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    FWIW, Baldelli just turned 27.
    Here's the pertinant information on Baldelli -- it sounds like the problem he has is genetic in origin. I feel for the kid, but stay far, far away:

    Rocco Baldelli will be sidelined indefinitely - but is not retiring - because of what he said are "some type of metabolic and/or mitochondrial abnormalities,'' a condition that leaves him feeling extremely fatigued after just a brief workout.

    "When I say "fatigued" my body is literally spent after a very short amount of time out on the field which makes it extremely frustrating and difficult, but it's kind of a reality right now,'' he said during a 13-minute session with reporters before Wednesday's game. "I feel like I've done a serious workout after a very short period of time, and it's a very odd feeling. ... I try not to be too dramatic when I explain what's going on, but it's not easy when you're out on the field for a very short period of time and you're done, and you're not really worth anything else out there. That's a tough thing to handle because you wonder why. You wonder why this is how your body feels.''

    Baldelli, 26, said there has been no exact diagnosis but the consensus of several experts was the rare condition that limits the ability of his muscles to recover. "Basically somewhere along the line ... either my body is not making or producing or storing ATP the right way and therefore not allowing, apparently, my muscles to work as they should, and especially recover like they're supposed to on a day-to-day basis. It becomes very difficult to go out and literally be on the field every day and play.''

    ATP, according to the website health.howstuffworks.com is a chemical, adenosine triphosphate, that is the energy source for muscles and "in order to continue exercising, your muscles must continuously make ATP. To make this happen, your body must supply oxygen to the muscles and eliminate the waste products and heat. The more strenuous the exercise, the greater the demands of working muscle. If these needs are not met, then exercise will cease - that is, you become exhausted and you won't be able to keep going."

    Baldelli provided this description:
    "I think the best way to describe it is literal muscle fatigue and cramping way before my body should be feeling these things. I would go out there and I was pretty much incapable of doing basic baseball activities, running and hitting and throwing. These were things I had done my whole life pretty easily and at some point within the last two years, we're not exactly sure why, these things started to change.''

    Baldelli moved to verge of tears several times in discussing details of his condition for the first time. He indicated he did not consider the condition life-threatening, saying "it's not something I'm overly worried about as far as on a long-term basis right now. And he said he would do "everything in my power" to get back on the field, but there was no timetable for a return, whether this season or ever. The Rays will place him on the disabled list to start the season and "identify" a replacement to be part of a platoon situation in right field and provide depth at the other spots and DH.

    "As far as my baseball career I'm not here to stand in front of you telling you I'm retiring,'' Baldelli said. "We're still going pursue any avenue that we can to try to figure out what is going on and have a better understanding of what is going on. But at this time throughout all of the extensive testing that we've done, we don't have a concrete answer. The doctors' consensus is these are the problems that I'm experiencing and there's probably a lot of medical proof of these things but they have been unable to specifically identify an exact reason or an exact problem down to a specific name. That's kind of frustrating.''

    Baldelli said he will remain on the disabled list "indefinitely until we find out something else that could possibly improve my situation.''

    Executive vice president Andrew Friedman termed Baldelli's condition "extremely rare" for professional athlete but said the Rays will work diligently to find a way to get him back on the field.
    "The most important thing is I think all of us are cautiously optimistic,'' Friedman said. "I don't have a medical reason to feel that way, but I know with Rocco's determination, with our training staff, with modern medicine the way it is, I refuse to believe there's not a way we can figure this out. It may prove to be naive. It may prove to be right. We don't know yet.''

    Baldelli thanked the Rays for their support, saying "this is probably as difficult and frustrating a thing I've ever had to deal with as a person. And we're going to do everything we can to fix and hopefully solve this problem.''

    Before Baldelli spoke, Rays manager Joe Maddon offered this perspective:
    "It's tough to figure out. It's something that he feels. It's something that unless you're inside that body you have no idea what it feels like. And it's unfortunate because you're talking about a gifted athlete right here. One of the more gifted athletes I would think in all of the American League given a chance to play on a daily basis. So it's hard. It's hard for him. It's harder for him than for us. It's frustrating for us, it's a career for him. It's a way of life. It's supporting his family in the future. It's difficutl. So we're just trying to pay attention to him and respect, because you have no idea what he feels like and it's frustrating. But it's even more frustrating for him.''

    Baldelli, 26, has been sidelined since sustaining a hamstring strain in a May 15 game, and has played just twice this spring, last on March 4, because his legs haven't recovered well and don't feel right.
    "It's not really encouraging right now, it hasn't really been progressing,'' Maddon said before Wednesday's game. "It's one of those day by day situations and it's not moving forward.''
    http://blogs.tampabay.com/rays/2008/03/baldelli.html
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    Member Jpup's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Not lately Freel wasn't, and he was expensive.

    As for Hairston, look at the last line of the previous post.
    I liked Hairston last year, but I think the Reds would be wise to let him walk.
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton

  5. #49
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792 View Post
    Juan Rivera is 30-years-old. He is who he is.

    His lifetime MLB PA/BB rate is 15.45. His lifetime minor league PA/BB rate is 14.60. You want guys in the 12 or under crowd, not well over 12. His entire professional career - majors and minors - is a walking pile of evidence that Juan Rivera will never walk at an acceptable rate.

    If he isn't hitting .300 in the major leagues with consistency and regularity, I'm not interested. Juan Rivera isn't hitting .300 with consistency and regularity, and now he's on the wrong side of 30 while coming off a broken leg.

    Don't get me wrong, there are other reasons besides Juan Rivera on why I don't want Juan Rivera. But Juan Rivera himself is far good enough reason alone.
    You've won me over. I was ambivalent about Rivera before, now I'm bivalent ... and not in the good way.

    If he were going to come dirt cheap (e.g. for $1M or less or on a minor league deal), I could see taking a flyer on the guy, but no way do I want the Reds spending coin on this guy and handing him a starting gig. There's better options.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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  6. #50
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    If a guy with a crappy track record has 1 really solid season, assume that the solid season was the fluke and move on. This is especially true when the season is generated on the back of unsustainable peripherals like a 27.5 LD% or a 17.7 HR/FB rate. It's not complicated.

    You give guys like Rivera $800k to be your 4th or 5th OF and you smile real big if they are forced in to playing time and do well. You do not give them 7 figures and even odds (or better) at a starting job.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 12-10-2008 at 11:29 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    Here's the pertinant information on Baldelli -- it sounds like the problem he has is genetic in origin. I feel for the kid, but stay far, far away:



    http://blogs.tampabay.com/rays/2008/03/baldelli.html
    I thought he had somewhat improved since then and was more hopeful that it could be controlled to some exttent.

  8. #52
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    They're both crap targets, and the Reds deserve to finish in the cellar if they acquire either one.
    Isn't that a bit harsh? Other than Dunn (who does not want to come back in all likelyhood), who do you suggest the Reds pursue?

    Getting Rivera, Baldalli, or Burrell would improve the team. If the Reds do nothing about their OF, then they deserve to finish in last place.

    No GM is going to turn this team into a contender in this offseason without selling off every young player and getting a huge budget (neither of which is going to happen).

    I am dreading Norris Hopper starting everyday because right now, he's at the top of the depth chart in LF. He'll be backed up by rejects like Andy What'sHisHame from last year that was released several times.

    Much like the Hernandez catcher acquision, I'd be happy to fill a gaping hole with a guy with upside. That's how you avoid finishing in last place. I want the team to have a legit shot at finishing 500 next year so they are tolerable to watch.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  9. #53
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792 View Post
    What I bolded is precisely what my last sentence foreshadowed.

    You see, people love to give players like Rivera chances because they're cheap and they see some false hope with their potential. It doesn't matter if that player is 30-years-old with an extreme high-risk (or just plain bad) playing record. They say "well he's only a million or two, he's cheap, so why not?"

    And then what happens?

    They play. They stink. People are shocked. SHOCKED! (not me, but they are). That player keeps playing. He also keeps stinking. Then he may be "shut down for a few weeks" on the DL to hide from stinking even more. Then he's rehabbed. Then he comes back again and gets more playing time again. And guess what? He stinks again.

    It's one big pile of stink that keeps growing because he's a veteran on a big league contract.

    Before you know it that player has pitched 78.1 innings and been absolutely devastating to your pitching staff. Or he's gone to the plate 392 times, many of those in the leadoff slot with a terrible on-base percentage. Or he's caught 96 games behind the plate and hit worse than a pitcher from May through the end of the season.

    And this all happens because the Reds bring in a "veteran" that management thinks has proven something when in reality all that veteran has proven is that he just isn't worth a casual look, much less piles of playing time.

    Exhibit A: Josh Fogg (boy, the Josh Fogg discussion was exactly like this - how do people like him now?)
    Exhibit B: Corey Patterson
    Exhibit C: Paul Bako

    And that's just from 2008.

    I'm tired of going down those roads. I want the road with actual, consistent run production. That's the road that teams take when they head to the playoffs.

    I don't care if we can't do it anymore, I'm giving you 80 billion rep points.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  10. #54
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpup View Post
    I liked Hairston last year, but I think the Reds would be wise to let him walk.
    You have to have somebody on the bench, though. Who would you advocate signing to sit on the bench for the Reds?

    Assuming the Reds carry 13 position players:

    Starters (8):
    CF (Dickerson?)
    SS (Gonzalez?)
    LF
    Bruce
    Votto
    Edwin
    Phillips
    Hernandez

    Bench (5)
    Hanigan
    Keppinger
    Hairston
    Baldelli
    Gonzalez (if we acquire an actual SS)/Rosales/Richar/Castillo/Free agent

    That's a pretty solid bench.

  11. #55
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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    I'd be happy to fill a gaping hole with a guy with upside.
    I'm not sure Baldelli or Rivera have much upside.
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton

  12. #56
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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    You have to have somebody on the bench, though. Who would you advocate signing to sit on the bench for the Reds?

    Assuming the Reds carry 13 position players:

    Starters (8):
    CF (Dickerson?)
    SS (Gonzalez?)
    LF
    Bruce
    Votto
    Edwin
    Phillips
    Hernandez

    Bench (5)
    Hanigan
    Keppinger
    Hairston
    Baldelli
    Gonzalez (if we acquire an actual SS)/Rosales/Richar/Castillo/Free agent

    That's a pretty solid bench.
    How about some of those young guys in AA that we hear are so great.
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton

  13. #57
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpup View Post
    I'm not sure Baldelli or Rivera have much upside.
    How can you honestly say Rocco doesn't have upside? The odds of him staying healthy aren't great, but neither were Josh Hamilton's odds of laying off the crack.

  14. #58
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    That's how you avoid finishing in last place. I want the team to have a legit shot at finishing 500 next year so they are tolerable to watch.
    Is that the goal now?

    Yippie, the winning starts...now?

    If that's the goal, just blow it up, and start from scratch. Keep Volquez, Cueto, Bruce, and one of Votto/Alonso and everyone else is up for grab.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  15. #59
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpup View Post
    How about some of those young guys in AA that we hear are so great.
    A. You don't bring up young players to sit on the bench
    B. The guys in AA to start 2009 would have been in High A/Low A last year. You want to have them skip AA and AAA?

  16. #60
    Member Jpup's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    The odds of him staying healthy aren't great
    I can't see giving a contract to a guy than can't play more than a couple times a week. Truthfully, that is all you could expect.
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton


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