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Thread: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

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    Member Jpup's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    A. You don't bring up young players to sit on the bench
    B. The guys in AA to start 2009 would have been in High A/Low A last year. You want to have them skip AA and AAA?
    Sure you can. That's what the ceiling is for most of them. I see no problem for some them skipping AAA. You see it all the time with teams that really have a good farm.
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton

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  3. #62
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpup View Post
    I'm not sure Baldelli or Rivera have much upside.
    Ok, then who should the Reds pursue? That's all I asking, what these "better options" are.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpup View Post
    I can't see giving a contract to a guy than can't play more than a couple times a week. Truthfully, that is all you could expect.
    That's all I would be paying him to do. Start 2-3 times a week, pinch hit in other games. I think he could do it.

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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpup View Post
    Sure you can. That's what the ceiling is for most of them. I see no problem for some them skipping AAA. You see it all the time with teams that really have a good farm.
    So you expect them to play to their ceiling while skipping two levels? Phenoms skip two levels, not bench players.

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    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    Isn't that a bit harsh? Other than Dunn (who does not want to come back in all likelyhood), who do you suggest the Reds pursue?

    Getting Rivera, Baldalli, or Burrell would improve the team. If the Reds do nothing about their OF, then they deserve to finish in last place.
    Getting Burrell would be a step in the right direction.

    Getting Rivera would be asking for disappointment and failure, praying that his contact-rate and BABIP remain high enough for him to collect enough base hits to avoid being an out-machine in the lineup.

    (Incidentally -- M2 once had a great line about players like this akin to: If you can't get the guys with high ceilings, at least avoid the guys with deep cellars. Juan Rivera is a prototypical "deep cellar" kind of ballplayer.)

    Getting Baldelli? Well, hope that Drew Stubbs gets ready in a hurry or that Chris Dickerson is the real deal -- otherwise be prepared to start Norris Hopper in the outfield around 100 times, because Baldelli's recent history suggests he's a poor bet to see more than 50 games next season. At best his contribution is projected at marginal, at worst he's a waste of cash resources both in the acquisition and cost of space in the training room. Like I said -- I feel for the kid, but he's a guy you stay far away from.
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    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792 View Post
    What I bolded is precisely what my last sentence foreshadowed.

    You see, people love to give players like Rivera chances because they're cheap and they see some false hope with their potential. It doesn't matter if that player is 30-years-old with an extreme high-risk (or just plain bad) playing record. They say "well he's only a million or two, he's cheap, so why not?"

    And then what happens?

    They play. They stink. People are shocked. SHOCKED! (not me, but they are). That player keeps playing. He also keeps stinking. Then he may be "shut down for a few weeks" on the DL to hide from stinking even more. Then he's rehabbed. Then he comes back again and gets more playing time again. And guess what? He stinks again.

    It's one big pile of stink that keeps growing because he's a veteran on a big league contract.

    Before you know it that player has pitched 78.1 innings and been absolutely devastating to your pitching staff. Or he's gone to the plate 392 times, many of those in the leadoff slot with a terrible on-base percentage. Or he's caught 96 games behind the plate and hit worse than a pitcher from May through the end of the season.

    And this all happens because the Reds bring in a "veteran" that management thinks has proven something when in reality all that veteran has proven is that he just isn't worth a casual look, much less piles of playing time.

    Exhibit A: Josh Fogg (boy, the Josh Fogg discussion was exactly like this - how do people like him now?)
    Exhibit B: Corey Patterson
    Exhibit C: Paul Bako

    And that's just from 2008.

    I'm tired of going down those roads. I want the road with actual, consistent run production. That's the road that teams take when they head to the playoffs.
    I think your examples are poor choices, these are guys who have never proven to be very good. Rivera has produced when given the opportunities and well worth a flyer. Because people have made poor decisions acquiring guys who are obviously flawed doesn't make this another one.
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    Member Jpup's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    That's all I would be paying him to do. Start 2-3 times a week, pinch hit in other games. I think he could do it.
    Why do you think he would come to Cincinnati to sit on the bench? I think New York and Boston provide a better opportunity for him. I'll pass unless he wants to play for the minimum.
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton

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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    So you expect them to play to their ceiling while skipping two levels? Phenoms skip two levels, not bench players.
    I said skip AAA, nothing about skipping AA.
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton

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    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpup View Post
    Why do you think he would come to Cincinnati to sit on the bench? I think New York and Boston provide a better opportunity for him. I'll pass unless he wants to play for the minimum.
    Well now you are switching the questions. All I said would I would target him on a 1 year deal for a few mil. I have no idea who has offered him outside of knowing we have talked to his agent.

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    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpup View Post
    I said skip AAA, nothing about skipping AA.
    Ok, who exactly are you referring to?

    There are two position players who I think have any chance of playing in the majors that were in AA last year, Dorn and Valaika.

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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    Getting Burrell would be a step in the right direction.

    Getting Rivera would be asking for disappointment and failure, praying that his contact-rate and BABIP remain high enough for him to collect enough base hits to avoid being an out-machine in the lineup.

    (Incidentally -- M2 once had a great line about players like this akin to: If you can't get the guys with high ceilings, at least avoid the guys with deep cellars. Juan Rivera is a prototypical "deep cellar" kind of ballplayer.)

    Getting Baldelli? Well, hope that Drew Stubbs gets ready in a hurry or that Chris Dickerson is the real deal -- otherwise be prepared to start Norris Hopper in the outfield around 100 times, because Baldelli's recent history suggests he's a poor bet to see more than 50 games next season. At best his contribution is projected at marginal, at worst he's a waste of cash resources both in the acquisition and cost of space in the training room. Like I said -- I feel for the kid, but he's a guy you stay far away from.
    If you take a look at Rivera's BABIP's they haven't been all that high in fact overall they have been lower than expected for a guy hitting for such averages.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Well now you are switching the questions. All I said would I would target him on a 1 year deal for a few mil. I have no idea who has offered him outside of knowing we have talked to his agent.
    The reason his agent called Jocketty is that he thinks he can get paid like a regular when he knows he isn't. Pure speculation, but logical speculation.
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton

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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpup View Post
    The reason his agent called Jocketty is that he thinks he can get paid like a regular when he knows he isn't. Pure speculation, but logical speculation.
    You are arguing something different right now. If he wants the Reds to pay him like a regular, then I don't want him. I've said that all along.

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    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    Rivera has produced when given the opportunities and well worth a flyer.
    Yet the rule with flyers should be that the lowest bid wins. So maybe you do take a flyer on someone if you can't land a guy you really like, but say you can get Austin Kearns for less. Or maybe Juan Encarnacion has shown up on your doorstep looking fit and spunky.

    Sounds to me like Rivera's hunting for a mid-tier commitment. I don't think he's worth that.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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    Re: Reds have talked to agents for Baldelli, Rivera, plan to talk Burrell

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    You are arguing something different right now. If he wants the Reds to pay him like a regular, then I don't want him. I've said that all along.
    I believe that's the only way he would come to the Reds. That's one major reason I don't want him.
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton


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