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Thread: Why do the Reds (Organizationally) love bad players?

  1. #1
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Why do the Reds (Organizationally) love bad players?

    A post in another thread got me wondering:

    I think the reason it's [signing Willy Taveras] generated so much discussion is the recent past.

    Players we've deemed to be garbage often find their way to Cincinnati and play far more than they should time and time again.

    Ownership/Management changes hands, but the same philosophy reigns.

    It's not that we're gun shy, it's almost as if we KNOW whats coming.
    What is it that drives the Reds organization to target Willy Taveras - an OBP-challenged speedster - just one season after being burned by Corey Patterson - an OBP-challenged speedster.

    It's a team that gave a big money contract to Eric Milton and a smaller-money contract to Jimmy Haynes, signed Juan Castro twice, broke camp with Dave Williams as a starter once, actually gave up talent to bring Tony Womack into the organization, allowed Joe Mays to throw 27 innings, and attaches words like "imperative" and "important" to efforts to re-sign flashes-in-the-pan like Jerry Hairston.

    The faces in the front office change, but the same sad story parades through the front door.

    Why is this?
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  3. #2
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Why do the Reds (Organizationally) love bad players?

    They continue to hire people who think we still play in the 70's and 80's?

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    Hardscrabble wheels's Avatar
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    Re: Why do the Reds (Organizationally) love bad players?

    Thanks for quoting me.

    I really wish I understood it, though.

    It's not as if it's a bottom feeding type thing. I mean, some of those guys were given really good money to stink up the joint.

    Walt Jocketty wins championships elsewhere but then decides Willy Taveras is on of the answers in the rebuilding process.

    Wow.
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  5. #4
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    Re: Why do the Reds (Organizationally) love bad players?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    They continue to hire people who think we still play in the 70's and 80's?
    Yeah, but you'd think that might at least lead to good fundamentals.

    It hasn't even lead to high socks.
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

  6. #5
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Why do the Reds (Organizationally) love bad players?

    Quote Originally Posted by nate View Post
    Yeah, but you'd think that might at least lead to good fundamentals.

    It hasn't even lead to high socks.
    No but it leads to an overvaluing of free swinging guys who are fast....

  7. #6
    My clutch is broken RichRed's Avatar
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    Re: Why do the Reds (Organizationally) love bad players?

    "That was the other guy's OBP-challenged speedster. This is MY OBP-challenged speedster. It will work this time."
    "I can make all the stadiums rock."
    -Air Supply

  8. #7
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Why do the Reds (Organizationally) love bad players?

    As an organization, the Reds strike me as more backward thinking than forward thinking. Other organizations out there, such as the Red Sox, seem to always be seeking out and identifying ways to just do things better. And by things, I mean anything and everything that can make their organization better.

    For whatever reason, the Reds just don't seem to be making that type of same progress. I do think they've come a long, long way since Castellini bought the team from the clown known as Carl Lindner, but they still have a long way to go.
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    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Why do the Reds (Organizationally) love bad players?

    If I lived in Cincy, I wouldn't be drinking the water. I bet that's it.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  10. #9
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Why do the Reds (Organizationally) love bad players?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    If I lived in Cincy, I wouldn't be drinking the water. I bet that's it.
    Could be.... I don't remember the last time I had any tap water.

  11. #10
    Let's ride BRM's Avatar
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    Re: Why do the Reds (Organizationally) love bad players?

    Quote Originally Posted by nate View Post
    Yeah, but you'd think that might at least lead to good fundamentals.

    It hasn't even lead to high socks.
    Taveras wears high socks.

  12. #11
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: Why do the Reds (Organizationally) love bad players?

    Keep in mind that with the exception of 1990 and possibly 1999 this organization has been mired in suck since the late 1970's.

    After the heyday of the Big Red Machine it's been a big letdown. That's a lot of pressure on a string of GM's. Each one that sits down behind the GM desk has to deal with "we used to be a great team, now you have to get us back there".

    That leads GM's to start thinking they have to take risks, or have to talk themselves into why player X isn't as bad as they might appear. After all, if Player X has a career year it will be one step back towards the BRM. 1990 reinforced the idea of simultaneous career years driving a team.

    There's a number of other factors, of corse, but the pressure to return the glory days propels GM's to talk themselves into a great deal of bad decisions. Especially since the city is so uniquely obsessed with all things Big Red Machine.
    Last edited by Ltlabner; 12-16-2008 at 05:40 PM.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  13. #12
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: Why do the Reds (Organizationally) love bad players?

    It also doesn't help that there is a strong culture of "this is the way we've always done things" running through the DNA of South Western Ohio. That's true of many areas, of corse, but in combination with BRM pressure it crushes any incentive to implement any real new ideas of thought.

    That's why we hear, "we're getting back to defense" without any real getting back to defense. Other than knowing what good defense looks like there's no real system in place to help them determine which players provide the real thing.

    Hell, you can't even get P-Doc to quit yapping about "playing the game the right way" long enough to even consider concrete systems that would lead to "winning".
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  14. #13
    Member penantboundreds's Avatar
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    Re: Why do the Reds (Organizationally) love bad players?

    Yeah, Taveras isn't the worst player ever, he can actually be pretty valuable to a ballclub, but continue to think he is the worst player ever. 68 stolen bases is probably not valuable, right? Or wait, that's 68 times he at least got into scoring position. I think that's valuable but hey, what do I know, right?
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    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Why do the Reds (Organizationally) love bad players?

    Quote Originally Posted by penantboundreds View Post
    Yeah, Taveras isn't the worst player ever, he can actually be pretty valuable to a ballclub, but continue to think he is the worst player ever. 68 stolen bases is probably not valuable, right? Or wait, that's 68 times he at least got into scoring position. I think that's valuable but hey, what do I know, right?


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  16. #15
    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Why do the Reds (Organizationally) love bad players?

    Quote Originally Posted by penantboundreds View Post
    Yeah, Taveras isn't the worst player ever, he can actually be pretty valuable to a ballclub, but continue to think he is the worst player ever. 68 stolen bases is probably not valuable, right? Or wait, that's 68 times he at least got into scoring position. I think that's valuable but hey, what do I know, right?
    Being a good base runner doesn't necessarily make a good baseball player. Taveras has value because of his speed, but outside of that, he has negative value unless the Reds don't have any better options. In free agency, there are much better options than Taveras, and you could make the argument that Stubbs or some other minor leaguer in the organization could perform better than Taveras. Taveras isn't the worst player ever, but as much as it pains me to say it, I'd rather have Corey Patterson.


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