No I don't support Palmiero or anyone else who tested positive for performance enhanced drugs. Having said that Bonds for example was IMO a HOFer before he obviously did the performance enhanced drugs so I would have no problem seeing Bonds get in.
You are right on the 500 home runs. With how the way the game has changed you will see more and more players hit the 500 mark so I think the bar needs to be set a little higher.
It could have been interesting though had Harold Baines reached 3,000 hits. If I recall he fell a few hundred short, but I just can't see him in as worthy of the HOF even if he had reached the magic 3,000 hit mark.
"Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard
"Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard
I think it is a mistake to assume the steroids didn't also help him to attain 3,000 hits. A lot of the advantage of PED's lies in the way they help players recover from injury. No telling whether Palmeiro could have had the same longevity without them.
If you vote Raffy for the Hall, you are voting with full knowledge that ALL of his stats could have been--and probably were--tainted in some way by his use of drugs. That doesn't necessarily mean he shouldn't get a vote any more than another member of his generation (many of whom probably also used but were never caught). It just means that voters have one heck of a conundrum on their hands for players in the steroids era.
“Every level he goes to, he is going to compete. They will know who he is at every level he goes to.” -- ED on EDLC
Really? I wouldn't put money on that. Rice came so close to making it last year though that I'm convinced that if he was half as personable and quotable with the media as George Foster he would have made it in years ago.
"I don't know why people like the home run so much. A home run is over as soon as it starts. The triple is the most exciting play of the game. A triple is like meeting a woman who excites you, spending the evening talking and getting more excited, then taking her home. It drags on and on. You're never sure how it's going to turn out." - George Foster (1978)
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/play...hp?p=fostege01
Stick to your guns.
Rice got about 72% of the vote last year. I believe that every player who ever got that close to the 75% required for induction has eventually made the HOF, although a few had to do it via the Veterans Committee. I'd guess that Rice has at least a fifty-fifty chance of being inducted this year, his final year on the ballot.
"Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."
Foster's 1979 season was cut short by injuries ....and that cost him his 4th straight RBI title......which he could have done despite missing about 40 games.
Hack Wilson in the HOF? If he is....he does not belong either....beacuse i think you compare his stats and small window of dominance....and you have a Foster clone. This is going by what the average was at that time in comparison to Foster's time.
Fosters best 8 years vs Wilsons best 8 years
Code:1975-1982 YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS 1975 Reds 26 134 463 71 139 24 4 23 4.97 78 40 73 2 1 .300 .518 .356 .875 1976 Reds 27 144 562 86 172 21 9 29 5.16 121 52 89 17 3 .306 .530 .364 .894 1977 Reds 28 158 615 124 197 31 2 52 8.46 149 61 107 6 4 .320 .631 .382 1.013 1978 Reds 29 158 604 97 170 26 7 40 6.62 120 70 138 4 4 .281 .546 .360 .906 1979 Reds 30 121 440 68 133 18 3 30 6.82 98 59 105 0 2 .302 .561 .386 .948 1980 Reds 31 144 528 79 144 21 5 25 4.73 93 75 99 1 0 .273 .473 .362 .835 1981 Reds 32 108 414 64 122 23 2 22 5.31 90 51 75 4 0 .295 .519 .373 .892 1982 Mets 33 151 550 64 136 23 2 13 2.36 70 50 123 1 1 .247 .367 .309 .676 TOTALS 1118 4176 653 1213 187 34 234 5.60 819 458 809 35 15 .290 .520 .361 .881 LG AVERAGE 3986 499 1058 178 31 83 2.08 463 392 547 100 49 .265 .388 .332 .720 POS AVERAGE 4033 543 1106 183 36 101 2.50 508 413 629 131 59 .274 .413 .342 .755 YEAR TEAM RC RCAA RCAP OWP RC/G TB EBH ISO SEC BPA IBB HBP SAC SF GIDP OUTS PA POS 1975 Reds 81 22 19 .634 6.36 240 51 .218 .309 .528 11 3 0 5 14 344 511 LF 1976 Reds 110 43 32 .707 7.19 298 59 .224 .347 .569 4 4 0 9 11 413 627 LF 1977 Reds 143 63 54 .738 8.64 388 85 .311 .420 .637 10 5 0 8 17 447 689 LF 1978 Reds 113 35 26 .656 6.60 330 73 .265 .387 .566 16 7 0 6 18 462 687 LF 1979 Reds 93 39 35 .728 7.77 247 51 .259 .393 .586 7 3 0 3 11 323 505 LF 1980 Reds 90 22 10 .621 6.04 250 51 .201 .345 .515 14 1 0 4 14 402 608 LF 1981 Reds 80 31 22 .703 7.01 215 47 .225 .357 .553 5 3 0 4 12 308 472 LF 1982 Mets 61 -10 -9 .428 3.79 202 38 .120 .213 .396 9 2 0 6 13 434 608 LF TOTALS 771 245 189 .663 6.64 2170 455 .229 .347 .545 76 28 0 45 110 3133 4707 LG AVERAGE 521 0 0 .500 4.49 1547 292 .123 .246 .434 51 20 33 35 88 3133 4466 POS AVERAGE 578 56 0 .541 4.98 1665 321 .139 .274 .463 45 22 22 37 87 3133 4528
Vs the leagueCode:HACK WILSON 1926-1933 YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS 1926 Cubs 26 142 529 97 170 36 8 21 3.97 109 69 61 10 0 .321 .539 .406 .944 1927 Cubs 27 146 551 119 175 30 12 30 5.44 129 71 70 13 0 .318 .579 .401 .980 1928 Cubs 28 145 520 89 163 32 9 31 5.96 120 77 94 4 0 .313 .588 .404 .992 1929 Cubs 29 150 574 135 198 30 5 39 6.79 159 78 83 3 0 .345 .618 .425 1.044 1930 Cubs 30 155 585 146 208 35 6 56 9.57 191 105 84 3 0 .356 .723 .454 1.177 1931 Cubs 31 112 395 66 103 22 4 13 3.29 61 63 69 1 0 .261 .435 .362 .798 1932 Dodgers 32 135 481 77 143 37 5 23 4.78 123 51 85 2 0 .297 .538 .366 .904 1933 Dodgers 33 117 360 41 96 13 2 9 2.50 54 52 50 7 0 .267 .389 .359 .748 TOTALS 1102 3995 770 1256 235 51 222 5.56 946 566 596 43 0 .314 .565 .402 .967 LG AVERAGE 3850 553 1125 199 52 58 1.52 511 332 282 54 0 .292 .416 .351 .768 POS AVERAGE 3915 625 1171 199 52 72 1.85 496 325 297 65 0 .299 .432 .357 .789 YEAR TEAM RC RCAA RCAP OWP RC/G TB EBH ISO SEC BPA IBB HBP SAC SF GIDP OUTS PA POS 1926 Cubs 117 43 40 .700 8.27 285 65 .217 .367 .613 0 6 9 0 0 368 613 CF 1927 Cubs 128 53 49 .726 8.45 319 72 .261 .414 .651 0 6 18 0 0 394 646 CF 1928 Cubs 123 52 54 .734 8.39 306 72 .275 .431 .649 0 2 24 0 0 381 623 CF 1929 Cubs 151 62 54 .723 10.02 355 74 .274 .415 .670 0 2 16 0 0 392 670 CF 1930 Cubs 193 90 98 .758 12.70 423 97 .368 .552 .770 0 1 18 0 0 395 709 CF 1931 Cubs 64 10 7 .580 5.70 172 39 .175 .337 .515 0 0 0 0 0 292 458 CF 1932 Dodgers 94 30 7 .667 7.10 259 65 .241 .351 .587 0 1 6 0 0 344 539 RF 1933 Dodgers 53 8 5 .578 5.24 140 24 .122 .286 .464 0 0 1 0 8 273 413 LF TOTALS 923 348 314 .702 8.48 2259 508 .251 .404 .629 0 18 92 0 8 2839 4671 LG AVERAGE 580 0 0 .500 5.33 1602 309 .124 .224 .476 0 20 104 0 9 2839 4307 POS AVERAGE 617 37 0 .528 5.67 1692 324 .133 .233 .492 0 25 88 0 8 2839 4353
Code:HACK WILSON YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS 1923 Giants 23 -1 -2 -1 0 0 0 -1.33 -1 -1 0 0 0 -.093 -.208 -.152 -.360 1924 Giants 24 12 11 5 2 6 5 1.38 11 15 20 -3 3 .005 .082 .024 .106 1925 Giants 25 -14 -1 -15 -3 1 3 1.78 4 5 20 2 1 -.062 -.007 -.036 -.043 1926 Cubs 26 37 29 29 12 1 16 2.85 47 26 27 2 0 .034 .141 .058 .199 1927 Cubs 27 22 45 21 5 5 24 4.22 62 26 33 4 0 .028 .179 .053 .231 1928 Cubs 28 8 16 14 6 2 23 4.42 53 28 58 -3 0 .023 .176 .049 .225 1929 Cubs 29 34 49 34 0 -3 29 4.92 79 26 45 -6 0 .041 .175 .057 .232 1930 Cubs 30 34 54 36 4 -2 44 7.41 105 56 41 -4 0 .044 .259 .084 .343 1931 Cubs 31 -5 12 -11 1 -1 8 2.05 11 29 37 -4 0 -.024 .033 .018 .051 1932 Dodgers 32 10 13 9 11 -1 15 3.18 64 16 48 -3 0 .013 .127 .029 .156 1933 Dodgers 33 6 -2 -1 -3 -2 5 1.34 15 26 24 3 0 -.008 .014 .032 .046 1934 Dodgers 34 -4 0 -6 -4 -2 3 1.87 4 26 18 -2 0 -.026 -.013 .059 .046 Phillies 34 -7 -4 -6 -1 0 0 -1.62 0 1 2 0 0 -.187 -.308 -.125 -.433 TOTALS -11 -4 -11 -5 -2 3 1.50 4 27 20 -2 0 -.042 -.044 .041 -.003 TOTALS 130 222 109 29 4 175 3.63 453 279 374 -14 4 .015 .129 .044 .174 YEAR TEAM RC RCAA RCAP OWP RC/G TB EBH ISO SEC BPA IBB HBP SAC SF GIDP OUTS PA POS TOTALS 1 0.10 -13 -5 -.001 .135 .009 0 -1 -3 0 -2 0 12 1923 Giants -2 -5.17 -2 -1 -.115 -.220 -.261 0 0 0 0 0 0 -2 CF 1924 Giants 18 1.64 36 14 .077 .104 .089 0 -1 -3 0 0 0 22 CF 1925 Giants -5 -0.89 -7 1 .055 .098 .021 0 0 -1 0 0 0 -10 LF 1926 Cubs 47 3.32 89 29 .106 .153 .149 0 3 -8 0 0 0 58 CF 1927 Cubs 52 3.44 107 34 .151 .202 .186 0 3 0 0 0 0 51 CF 1928 Cubs 45 3.10 95 32 .152 .198 .170 0 -1 7 0 0 0 42 CF 1929 Cubs 60 3.97 115 27 .134 .162 .159 0 -1 0 0 0 0 59 CF 1930 Cubs 96 6.32 167 45 .216 .300 .250 0 -2 2 0 0 0 91 CF 1931 Cubs 7 0.65 11 7 .057 .123 .053 0 -2 -6 0 0 0 16 CF 1932 Dodgers 27 2.07 65 26 .114 .138 .122 0 -1 -1 0 0 0 24 RF 1933 Dodgers 8 0.80 7 0 .021 .101 .057 0 -2 -6 0 1 0 24 LF 1934 Dodgers 4 0.91 -4 -3 .013 .157 .044 0 -1 -2 0 -1 0 18 LF Phillies -4 -5.22 -9 -2 -.121 -.059 -.311 0 0 0 0 -1 0 -6 LF TOTALS 1 0.10 -13 -5 -.001 .135 .009 0 -1 -3 0 -2 0 12 TOTALS 355 2.78 670 208 .115 .168 .136 0 -4 -19 0 -1 0 387Code:GEORGE FOSTER YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS 1969 Giants 20 1 1 1 0 0 0 -2.36 1 0 0 0 0 .141 .016 .070 .086 1970 Giants 21 1 0 1 0 1 1 2.58 2 0 2 0 0 .049 .224 .041 .265 1971 Giants 22 0 -2 1 1 -1 1 0.65 -4 -4 12 -2 0 .007 .020 -.022 -.003 Reds 22 -22 -8 -15 3 1 1 0.51 7 -14 37 1 -3 -.026 .006 -.037 -.031 TOTALS -22 -9 -15 3 0 2 0.54 3 -18 49 0 -3 -.019 .009 -.034 -.025 1972 Reds 23 -12 -4 -11 -2 0 -2 -0.90 -5 -10 20 -1 1 -.057 -.096 -.095 -.191 1973 Reds 24 1 1 1 1 0 3 7.77 5 0 1 -1 -1 .020 .276 .017 .294 1974 Reds 25 1 -4 1 7 -2 1 0.48 9 1 14 -3 1 .002 .027 .009 .035 1975 Reds 26 25 16 23 5 1 14 2.98 27 -6 14 -6 3 .035 .135 .020 .155 1976 Reds 27 38 22 34 -1 5 20 3.36 62 0 19 5 3 .043 .156 .035 .190 1977 Reds 28 42 48 43 4 -3 37 5.88 78 3 24 -8 4 .051 .220 .045 .265 1978 Reds 29 19 25 17 -1 2 28 4.54 53 11 57 -11 3 .019 .161 .030 .191 1979 Reds 30 27 15 22 -1 0 21 4.53 49 19 48 -10 3 .033 .162 .052 .214 1980 Reds 31 16 16 7 -2 1 15 2.75 34 27 30 -14 7 .006 .086 .033 .119 1981 Reds 32 25 18 20 6 -1 15 3.57 47 13 24 -7 5 .032 .143 .045 .188 1982 Mets 33 -2 -5 -11 -1 -2 2 0.29 6 -2 45 -15 6 -.018 -.019 -.019 -.038 1983 Mets 34 -7 -3 -15 -8 -3 14 2.41 18 -24 20 -17 8 -.022 .029 -.043 -.013 1984 Mets 35 12 0 6 -2 -3 13 2.29 23 -23 40 -13 5 .006 .060 -.017 .043 1985 Mets 36 14 2 5 4 -2 11 2.36 26 2 22 -12 4 .003 .073 .003 .076 1986 Mets 37 -8 -3 -10 -5 0 7 3.14 9 -4 14 -6 2 -.034 .035 -.042 -.007 White Sox 37 -2 -5 -3 -2 2 -1 -1.00 -3 -2 -1 -1 1 -.046 -.055 -.070 -.125 TOTALS -10 -8 -13 -8 1 7 2.39 7 -6 13 -7 3 -.036 .019 -.047 -.028 TOTALS 168 130 117 5 -5 201 2.81 444 -14 443 -118 51 .010 .093 .008 .101 YEAR TEAM RC RCAA RCAP OWP RC/G TB EBH ISO SEC BPA IBB HBP SAC SF GIDP OUTS PA POS TOTALS -8 -0.98 1 0 .055 .012 -.017 -2 -2 -2 0 -3 0 -21 1969 Giants 1 4.60 1 0 -.125 -.240 -.026 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 RF 1970 Giants 1 2.82 5 2 .175 .155 .167 1 0 0 0 -1 0 1 LF 1971 Giants -2 -0.70 2 1 .013 -.040 -.035 0 -1 -1 0 -1 0 -6 LF Reds -13 -1.12 -6 5 .032 .003 -.027 -3 5 -3 0 -7 0 -35 CF TOTALS -15 -1.03 -4 6 .027 -.007 -.029 -3 4 -4 0 -8 0 -40 1972 Reds -12 -2.50 -18 -4 -.040 -.107 -.144 -1 0 -1 0 -2 0 -24 RF 1973 Reds 3 2.71 11 4 .257 .242 .220 -1 0 0 0 0 0 0 CF 1974 Reds 1 0.17 8 6 .024 .017 .018 1 2 -1 0 -2 0 3 RF 1975 Reds 23 1.83 72 20 .100 .066 .099 5 0 -4 1 -4 0 16 LF 1976 Reds 45 2.91 102 23 .113 .115 .150 -2 1 -4 4 1 0 40 LF 1977 Reds 63 3.80 153 38 .170 .152 .183 3 2 -4 3 -5 0 47 LF 1978 Reds 37 2.17 104 30 .142 .138 .133 8 4 -5 1 -5 0 29 LF 1979 Reds 37 3.12 82 20 .129 .141 .143 2 1 -4 -1 -2 0 43 LF 1980 Reds 24 1.61 52 14 .080 .101 .082 7 -1 -4 -1 -3 0 37 LF 1981 Reds 31 2.74 69 20 .111 .119 .131 0 1 -4 1 -3 0 36 LF 1982 Mets -10 -0.62 -11 -2 .000 -.030 -.036 2 -1 -5 1 -1 0 -8 LF 1983 Mets -13 -0.71 15 4 .051 -.015 -.014 -3 1 -4 -1 -6 0 -36 LF 1984 Mets 3 0.17 38 8 .054 -.013 .019 3 4 -4 1 -2 0 -10 LF 1985 Mets 12 0.91 38 13 .069 .044 .055 -1 0 -3 1 2 0 13 LF 1986 Mets -5 -0.69 5 1 .069 .030 .000 -2 -1 -2 0 -2 0 -15 LF White Sox -3 -2.06 -4 -1 -.009 -.068 -.097 0 0 0 0 -1 0 -6 LF TOTALS -8 -0.98 1 0 .055 .012 -.017 -2 -2 -2 0 -3 0 -21 TOTALS 224 1.10 716 202 .082 .061 .068 20 18 -53 9 -43 0 129
Despite the run atmospheres being polar opposites Wilson still dominated his era more than Foster who did dominate his era. That said it's fun to note that the Giants dumped both players prior to their busting ou.
Okay.....I was wrong. Hack Wilson is still not a HOF to me.
Very true. I particularly am not impressed when someone who advocates the induction of a relatively "modern" player uses as the HOF players for comparsion people who played decades ago (no offense intended Tony Cloninger), because the old veterans committee made so many mistakes in inducting players from the 1920s and 1930s.
However, a comparsion between contemporaries, some of whom are in the HOF and some of whom are not, does seem to me to be a bit better argument. For example, Luis Tiant clearly is more deserving of the HOF than is Pop Haines, but Haines played back in the 1920s-30s and is just another of Frankie Frisch's cronies to be a mistake made by the veterans committee. A much better argument for Tiant IMO is that two of his contemporaries, Catfish Hunter and Jim Bunning, are in the HOF, and Tiant is as deserving of the HOF as Hunter and Bunning.
"Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."
"Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard
Bill James book "Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame"...is the best breakdown/analysis for what they usually look for in a player. He also does a great job in detailing the voting and the back channel stuff that occurred.
I really had no desire to read the book when i started. The HOF is not something I'm really interested in, but James is such a good writer that he overcomes reader apathy.
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