Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

[TRF]

What theory? All I've said is that players do go stretches when they don't walk. Players who walk a lot still have stretches where they don't as much. They start struggling at the plate and start forcing things. They run up against a string of pitchers who have above average control. I never said that players who hit for average slump more or less than ones with high walk rates. Only that the ones with high walk rates ALSO slump. And that they slump in regards to hits AND to walks. Every player does. It's how long the slumps are that determine how effective a player they are IMO.

Someone just posted Dunn's monthly walk totals and lo and behold, that month of 10 walks stands out. The rest were fairly consistant, but in regards to walks...I'd call that a slump for taking walks.

So 5 months of consistent BB totals, and you point out the one month his totals dropped. You ignored the WILDLY fluctuating BA totals in the process. you proved the point that BB totals are more slump proof, not disproved it.

[Falls City Beer]

It's hard to call it an Echo-Chamber when, really, there isn't much an argument that can be made that Taveras is anything other than a waste of a roster space. The reason you hear things echoing is because it's an issue that most people can reasonably come to the same conclusion on.

Seriously -- if you can make a decent argument for acquiring Taveras as a starting CF / leadoff hitter, then I am all ears.

And no, I don't count any argument that includes the phrase "if used properly" because his role on this team has already been defined by Walt today and by Dusty's history: everyday CF, leadoff hitter.

Nah, it's not just this signing, and certainly, there's no defending this particular signing. But the board's just one pile-on after another, IMO--since the split.

[Will M]

If he has a NL average season for a NL centerfielder, I'll be more then happy.

OBP-.333
SLG-.426
OPS-.760

Or roughly, 85-90 Runs Created per 600 PA's.

sure. CF is a defense first position. if he can provide good defense in CF and OPS .750 in a neutral park then he's fine.

[Kc61]

The lifetime OBP is spiked by a career year in 2007.

Everyone on Redszone saying he's a poor defender has been justifying that position with defensive metrics.

The Rockies aren't a small market team. they could have easily afforded Taveras. They didn't want him.

Well, personally I know a crap move when I see one.

Taveras just turned 27 and has played four years. Two were above .331 and two were below. The same way you argue that one year "spiked" his OB average, I could argue that last year suppressed his OB average.

His range factor of 2.61 last year was better than, say, Mike Cameron. Seems about average to me.

I assume you know from some source that the Rockies just didn't want Taveras. But often teams decline to arbitrate because they think the player will get more than they are willing to pay, or they have a good replacement, or some other reason. Did the DBacks decide they just didn't want Adam Dunn when they declined arbitration, or was there more to it?

I'm sure you know a bad move when you see one. But for those of us who don't read the future, we take a more "wait and see" attitude.

[Raisor]

sure. CF is a defense first position. if he can provide good defense in CF and OPS .750 in a neutral park then he's fine.

And if my mother had wheels she'd be a wagon.

He's done it once, and been 100 OPS points away three times.

The one time he did do it, he played in less then 100 games.

[RollyInRaleigh]

Nah, it's not just this signing, and certainly, there's no defending this particular signing. But the board's just one pile-on after another, IMO--since the split.

Agree.

[Raisor]

Taveras just turned 27 and has played four years. Two were above .331 and two were below. The same way you argue that one year "spiked" his OB average, I could argue that last year suppressed his OB average.

.

How about if I can show that 08 was just Willy returning to his norm?

Let me use a slightly different number, RC per 100 PA.

05 11.01 (66.06 per 600 pa)
06 11.11 (66.66 per 600 pa)
07 14.09 (84.54 per 600 pa)
08 10.54 (63.24 per 600 PA)

[mth123]

It's hard to call it an Echo-Chamber when, really, there isn't much an argument that can be made that Taveras is anything other than a waste of a roster space. The reason you hear things echoing is because it's an issue that most people can reasonably come to the same conclusion on.

Seriously -- if you can make a decent argument for acquiring Taveras as a starting CF / leadoff hitter, then I am all ears.

And no, I don't count any argument that includes the phrase "if used properly" because his role on this team has already been defined by Walt today and by Dusty's history: everyday CF, leadoff hitter.

That's pretty much it for me as well. IF Taveras was signed as bench depth to PR late in the game, come in for defense and get an occassioal start, I would merely think this is an overpayment because Hopper or any number of easily available speed guys could play that role. Heck, I'd even be ok if I thought he was the RH half of a CF platoon with Dickerson (though, again, there are better options). But WJ makes it sound as though he's the every day CF and Lead-Off hitter. Its already been pointed out that his one decent year, he was limted to 97 games and less than 400 PA, so he's never had a good year as the full time starter. Its not that he's an acquisition, its that its likely that he's the acquisition.

[Caveat Emperor]

Agree.

I just think it's a symptom of the underlying problem: the Reds continue to target crap players.

[Falls City Beer]

I just think it's a symptom of the underlying problem: the Reds continue to target crap players.

I don't know; I think there's a bully pulpit for the favored sons too.

[Raisor]

I don't know; I think there's a bully pulpit for the favored sons too.

You have been properly introduced to the internets, right?

[Falls City Beer]

Its not that he's an acquisition, its that its likely that he's the acquisition.

Why do you say that? I don't have any indication that the Reds are done for the offseason.

[Falls City Beer]

You have been properly introduced to the internets, right?

I don't understand.

[Raisor]

I don't understand.

What exactly do you want out of your Redszone?

People are going to complain about roster moves.

People are going to complain about people that complain about roster moves.

People are going to complain about the people complaining about the people complaining about roster moves.

It's the internets.

[Kc61]

How about if I can show that 08 was just Willy returning to his norm?

Let me use a slightly different number, RC per 100 PA.

05 11.01 (66.06 per 600 pa)
06 11.11 (66.66 per 600 pa)
07 14.09 (84.54 per 600 pa)
08 10.54 (63.24 per 600 PA)

The guy has no power. Such a hitter will always fall short in any statistical category that includes power hitting. For example, SLG and OPS. This type of hiter will always fail in these areas, and RC probably is included. And yes, he had his best year in 2007 and his worst in 2008.

His value is in his speed, ability to get infield hits, base stealing, and overall disruptive impact. If he has a good OBP year, which he has done previously, Taveras will be a good asset. If he OBPs the same as last year, he will be very frustrating and not much help.

IMO, this move is ok, but still begs the question of who will be the main new power hitter. If none, and it's an outfield of Taveras, Dickerson, Hairston, and Bruce, then I expect a very aggressive, fun team but one that probably lacks the power to win.