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Thread: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

  1. #421
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    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfan View Post
    I still say sign Dunn and be done with it.... With out pitching staff and that line-up we would certainly compete in 09.... It's merely a dream to sign Dunn though.. Jock doesn't want him.... He'd rather sign Hairston Jr and focus on Small ball...

    1. Willy Taveras- CF
    2. Jay Bruce- RF
    3. Joey Votto- 1st
    4. Edwin Encarnacion-3rd
    5. Adam Dunn-LF
    6. Brandon Phillips-2nd
    7. Ramon Hernandez-C
    8. Alex Gonzalez-SS
    Dunn doesn't want to come back. That time is over.

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  3. #422
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    You've done a lot to attempt to disparage the value of Walks in this thread...
    If you go back and re-read, you'll see that is exactly what I'm NOT doing. I love seeing our Reds players taking walks. I loved that Dunn drew alot of them. What I don't do is think that a high walk rate is more important than a high batting average. Regardless of what many here seem to think, walks are NOT more valuable than hits. I'm not undervaluing them...I'm trying to point out that many here OVERvalue them.

    ,
    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    ...but you've avoided the concept that a big chunk of Taveras' BA is virtually hollow. He's nothing but a Singles hitter at his best and a big chunk of that is bunting for a hit. In fact, during his best BA season, a full 31% of Taveras' Base Hits were by bunting himself on, which basically replicate the effect of a Base on Balls. Cut the bunting luck overage away from 2007 and you're left with a line of .271 BA/.333 OBP/.344 SLG. I can't possibly believe you'd support the acquisition of a plyer with a line like that as being anything other than AAA filler. He's Juan Pierre-lite.
    And no, I'm not avoiding that he's a singles hitter. What I just don't get is what in the world is so wrong about being a singles hitter? There are hof'ers who made their careers out of being singles hitters. (no, I'm not making that comparison really) If he hit a lot of doubles instead of bunt singles, would that be okay? How much different is a bunt single plus a stolen base from a double? A good number of his singles effectively end up as doubles after he swipes second. I say we start a new stat called virtual SLG. :O)

    And in regards to his bunt singles basically replicating a BB...again, I disagree. Sure, in both cases you only get to first. But in the bunt situation, you're forcing the defense to make a play. You've tossed in the possibility of throwing/catching errors, you've added in the possibilities of moving a runner from second to third or even third to home. So like I said numerous times, I'll take a hit...ANY hit...over a walk any day of the week.
    Last edited by _Sir_Charles_; 12-27-2008 at 11:27 PM.
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

  4. #423
    I hate the Cubs LoganBuck's Avatar
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    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    Micah Owings' bat is looking really, really good right now. He can be Taveras late inning offensive replacement.

    sigh...
    The Sox traded Bullfrog the only player they've got for Shottenhoffen. Four-eyes Shottenhoffen a utility infielder. They've got a whole team of utility infielders.

  5. #424
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    Quote Originally Posted by Will M View Post
    I disagree. Catcher, shortstop & centerfield are the three positions where the player has to be able to play defense. If a team can get strong defense and an OPS of 700 out these positions they are doing well.
    What game have you been watching? Yes, a CF needs to play defense. He's also got to make a significant contribution on offense. This is nothing new under the sun. The average CF in the NL last season averaged a .760 OPS. Almost all of them played defense (something fans of teams not forced to endure Ken Griffey Jr. in CF for most of the last decade often take for granted). A .700 OPS is a dog, a deficient player in need of a serious benching.

    BTW, the average NL SS last season averaged a .738 OPS and the average catcher averaged a .715 OPS. The brand of baseball you're talking about doesn't exist and, in terms of CFs, hasn't for 30 years (1988 being the lone exception).
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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  6. #425
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_
    I fully agree with many here that Taveras should not be leading off. I think that's fairly obvious. But I've got no problem at all with his defense, his speed or his hitting for that matter. I'm not expecting him to be a slugger. Heck, I'm not even expecting him to be handed the CF starting job. The results of ST will determine that. Jocketty is in charge or acquiring the players...Baker is in charge of who plays and where. If Jocketty is going to be taking over who bats where and where players play...then he needs to dump the manager whoever he is. And to be clear, this isn't Dusty bashing either. Other than his batting orders and his choice of starters in the first half, I didn't really have much of a problem with Baker. But to be fair, he didn't have many other options did he?

    I think too many people here are assuming that Taveras will start in CF and lead off simply because of what Walt said. If asked again, I bet he'll say it's Dusty's decision and that decision will be made after ST.
    Walt has stated just the opposite. Taveras is the leadoff hitter and starting CF. That is why he was signed.

    In order for Taveras not to suck, he has to do three things:

    1. replicate his OBP from 2007
    2. Replicate or exceed his SB totals AND SB%
    3. exceed his BB totals by at the very least doubling them from 2008. That will offset his likely low to middling BA.
    4. Increase his power output by at least 20%. I don't mean HR's, I mean doubles and triples. in bunches.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  7. #426
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    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Walt has stated just the opposite. Taveras is the leadoff hitter and starting CF. That is why he was signed.

    In order for Taveras not to suck, he has to do three things:

    1. replicate his OBP from 2007
    2. Replicate or exceed his SB totals AND SB%
    3. exceed his BB totals by at the very least doubling them from 2008. That will offset his likely low to middling BA.
    4. Increase his power output by at least 20%. I don't mean HR's, I mean doubles and triples. in bunches.
    If he does those things he becomes an excellent player. Sometimes that happens; it usually doesn't. Maybe he'll not be awful, and he'll be a platoon. That's what I'm hoping for.

  8. #427
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    That .700 OPS era for CF is over, especially with smaller parks, since 2000 only 18% of the CF who have played enough to qualify for the batting title have had an OPS of .700 or less, 17 guys out of 91 and Taveras is there three times
    You act like getting the most consistently underproductive CF in baseball during the past decade is a bad thing.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  9. #428
    Member CrackerJack's Avatar
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    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    Great, now we get to see Taveras' name mentioned in every other post for the next two years. Ugh.

  10. #429
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    Still no idea what this is costing the Reds?

    (Cue the jokes about "a playoff birth.")

  11. #430
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    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    Quote Originally Posted by CrackerJack View Post
    Great, now we get to see Taveras' name mentioned in every other post for the next two years. Ugh.
    Right. Even when the Reds' pitching is 15th in NL team ERA.

    I don't like the acquisition but I like less that he'll be the scapegoat for everything.

  12. #431
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Walt has stated just the opposite. Taveras is the leadoff hitter and starting CF. That is why he was signed.

    In order for Taveras not to suck, he has to do three things:

    1. replicate his OBP from 2007
    2. Replicate or exceed his SB totals AND SB%
    3. exceed his BB totals by at the very least doubling them from 2008. That will offset his likely low to middling BA.
    4. Increase his power output by at least 20%. I don't mean HR's, I mean doubles and triples. in bunches.
    And I don't recall Walt Jocketty being named Reds manager as well as GM. He's been a CF/Leadoff hitter in the past. We need both a CF and a leadoff hitter. But I'll be flat-out shocked if they hand it to him. He'll have to earn it in ST. In the end it'll be Dusty's decision. If Dickerson earns it, he'll get it. If Stubbs or someother kid earns it, he'll get it. People can say what they want about Dusty, but I've seen no evidence that he starts vets over kids. In fact, I saw exactly the opposite in 2008.

    And to be precise...Jocketty said this (keep in mind that Fay typed these quotes...so they're probably incorrect *grin*)...

    "Willy Taveras fills two significant needs for our ball club, a speed base stealing threat at the top of the order and superior defense in center field," said Jockettty.
    Walt Jocketty on the Willy Taveras signing:
    --"He fills a couple of needs. He gives us very good defense in center field, and he's potentially a very good leadoff man."
    Jocketty sadi in order to do that Taveras has to get his on-base percentage close to .367 like it was in the 2007, rather than the .308 it was last season: "He needs to get back to way he was swinging the bat and getting on base a couple of years ago. Jamie Quirk, who's with us now was with Willy in Colorado, feels like Willy can get back to that."
    Nowhere in those quotes does Walt say that he's the starting CF'er or the starting leadoff hitter. He says he's potentially a very good leadoff man. If he doesn't reach that potential, he possibly won't be the leadoff man. He also says he brings good CF defense...not that he's being handed the CF starters job. Let's stop the panic already. ST will decide who'll play where.
    Last edited by _Sir_Charles_; 12-27-2008 at 11:47 PM.
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

  13. #432
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    Quote Originally Posted by SMcGavin View Post
    By the way, I'm sure it's been said earlier in this thread, but what happens if you put Chris Dickerson out there for 650 PAs in CF? Isn't the absolute worst case scenario that he puts up a season like Willy Taveras (fast, good defense, no bat)?
    Exactly. The only difference is that Taveras is faster and hits for a decent average by bunting instead of taking walks. Oh yeah, he's a "proven vet".
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  14. #433
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Exactly. The only difference is that Taveras is faster and hits for a decent average by bunting instead of taking walks. Oh yeah, he's a "proven vet".
    I've heard he sprints to his position
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

  15. #434
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    Quote Originally Posted by SMcGavin View Post
    By the way, I'm sure it's been said earlier in this thread, but what happens if you put Chris Dickerson out there for 650 PAs in CF? Isn't the absolute worst case scenario that he puts up a season like Willy Taveras (fast, good defense, no bat)?
    Indeed, this isn't the first time the Reds, frightened of an unknown who might suck, went out and sign a known player who does suck.
    Go Gators!

  16. #435
    Will post for food BuckeyeRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    People can say what they want about Dusty, but I've seen no evidence that he starts vets over kids. In fact, I saw exactly the opposite in 2008.

    I'm not sure I watched the same season as you did in 2008.


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