Turn Off Ads?
Page 46 of 68 FirstFirst ... 3642434445464748495056 ... LastLast
Results 676 to 690 of 1015

Thread: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

  1. #676
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    7,441

    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal View Post
    I get really frustrated when people take the time to look at acquisitions, raise their concerns, and then are attacked for doing so. Silly. No one here hopes Tavares fails. Everyone here hopes he morphs into a bona fide lead-off guy who gets on base at a .375 clip and impact games with his speed. But it is NOT likely.
    I used to be one of those people (arguing with those pointing out the flaws). I remember making many a dumb post in this regard.

    Part of baseball is hope but looking at the cold reality of a players probability to be effective tends to burst the hope bubble. And that irritated me. I just wanted to enjoy my game without all this doom and gloom.

    Then I figured out that all we are talking about here is probability. You can assemble the worlds greatest team, with the best stats possible on paper, and you can still end up with the Epic Fail (my new favorite phase). As is often said, you still have to play the game. Even if you have a 95% chance of wining there's still that 5% chance you don't.

    Better stats = more probablity that your team will win. Worse stats = more probability that your team will lose. Don't we all want a better chance at winning?

    Ultimately the argument has little to do with individual stats and numbers. The argument is about what players give you the best probability to win. The stats only serve to determine the probability.

    Once I got my head wrapped around that baseball became a lot more enjoyable.
    Last edited by Ltlabner; 12-29-2008 at 09:37 AM.


  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #677
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    7,441

    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    Quote Originally Posted by Krusty View Post
    The baseball people must have seen something beyond the numbers. So I have believe they have the better judgment despite the numbers.
    Plenty of "Baseball Men" have convinced themselves they were making stellar moves based on all sorts of things beyond the historical record (i.e. the players stats). Plenty of "Baseball Men" have watched their move blow up in their face.

    That they are "Baseball Men" does not make them infallible. Sure, they have a lot more information to deal with, and often make moves that on paper seem stupid but ultimately work out. All the internet forum haranguing in the world doesn't change that moves sometimes have bigger contextual benefits that are not obvious on the surface.

    But that doesn't mean that if a "Baseball Man" makes a move it's automatically a good thing. It all boils down to probabilities. If I'm going to gamble I want the safest bet possible unless I really, really, really trust my gut on a move.
    Last edited by Ltlabner; 12-29-2008 at 09:30 AM.

  4. #678
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    In Your Head
    Posts
    10,763

    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    Quote Originally Posted by Krusty View Post
    You know.....you can throw all the stats of modern era out to me and I wouldn't argue against you. But I don't give a damn if Willy Taveras hits .250 or .330 as long as the Reds win and eventually get back to the playoffs.
    Yet, if Willy Taveras hits .250, he dramatically hurts the ball club. If he hits .330, he helps. Now ask yourself which is more likely.

    You guys kiss the darn ground that Adam Dunn walked on for how many years? And how many years did Adam Dunn lead this team to the playoffs? Great numbers but couldn't hit in the clutch to save his life. My point is does it really matter if the team is winning and going to the playoffs?
    Not touching that.

    You think Jocketty acquired Taveras over Albert Pujols. You criticize Jocketty and put out a poll to find out his job performance when we are in the middle of the offseason and he isn't even close to completing the roster for the 2009 season. Then you want to question the guy? The same guy who built the St. Louis Cardinals into a World Champion and serious contender for how many years? So what makes you qualify to judge Jocketty? Show me your scouting credentials and I'll take it more seriously.
    Did you or did you not vote in that poll? Now ask yourself if you meet the criteria you lay out in the last sentence of that paragraph.

    No one can question the guy because they're not a professional baseball scout, but you gave him a grade of "C". You didn't abstain. You graded. You judged.

    Like I said, quote the numbers all you want. The Dallas Cowboys put up great individual numbers but guess what......they are sitting home for the playoffs. One thing the numbers don't tell you is team chemistry. Great numbers don't mean crap if you don't have chemistry. Look at the Cincinnati Bengals. And if you don't think it doesn't mean anything in baseball, then I guess Tampa Bay shouldn't have been in the playoffs either.
    The Dallas Cowboys actually allowed 3 more points than they scored in 2008. Not one NFL team made the playoffs with a negative point differential. Due to a much smaller game sample size in football, that's not as consistent an occurrence as in baseball, but the Tampa Bay Rays put up the fifth highest Run Differential in all of baseball in 2008. They were 200 Runs ahead of the Reds in that regard. You think "chemistry" produced that gap?

    You can't play the "chemistry" card with a poor player and then act as if you don't care what his production is as long as the Reds win. The reason you can't do that is that said player's production either adds or detracts from a team's ability to win baseball games. If it's the former, then he's a positive. If he's the latter, the team's just winning in spite of him.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams

  5. #679
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    12,371

    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    Quote Originally Posted by Krusty View Post
    It's not just the Taveras acquisition. Everything on this board has pretty much turned into negative postings. At one time this site was a joy to post. Now I read the threads and end up looking at other stuff on other sites. Maybe I'm looking at the Reds as a glass that is half full than half empty. Maybe I'm too optimistic that things are about to change after eight plus years of losing. Just maybe I think the Reds are going in the right direction after years of misguidance and have the faith that a proven baseball man like Walt Jocketty can change the culture of this franchise which the stench of losing has overtaken for years.

    But I'm tired of trying to argue the reasons why Taveras was acquired. The baseball people must have seen something beyond the numbers. So I have to believe they have the better judgment despite the numbers. It just wears you down when you read these threads and realize the stench of losing not only has spread through an organization but the fan base too.


    Taveras in a piece. One of 25. The entire team isn't going to be made or broken because of him. I also don't get the bashing of Jocketty. To my knowledge he has built more WS championships than everyone on this board combined. He didn't built the Cards into a perenial playoff contender just by dumb luck.

  6. #680
    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    8,684

    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    The Pollyanna Defense was used when Milton was signed, it was used when Patterson was brought in, it was used after the Tony Womack trade.

    Some people thought the "hand wringing" over the Patterson signing was much ado about nothing.

    Everyone gets all up in arms when others recognize a bad accquisition as it happens.

    Who's been right? Who's been wrong?
    "Baseball players are smarter than football players. How often do you see a baseball team penalized for too many men on the field?" ~ Jim Bouton

  7. #681
    Member membengal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Northern Maryland
    Posts
    13,748

    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    I defended the Milton signing on some levels, so, I got that in my past. Not proud of it, but there it is.

    The "shot-in-the-dark" moves that have helped this team, where numbers might not have shown the goodness coming (Josh Hamilton, Brandon Phillips) were not moves where jobs were just handed them. I have no problem with this team taking fliers on players like that and hoping they strike gold.

    I have a much bigger issue with signing a guy like Tavares and handing him a job. Same with Patterson last year. Womack before that. And it should have been my issue with Milton, but, hey, "at least they spent money". Man I came to rue that justification...

    But, still, Krusty, there's always hope. Blind hope. Because Jock has said nothing about how Tavares' game has changed other than "Quirk thinks he can fix him up". Gracious I hope so. I really do. But I am sure not betting the mortgage on it.

  8. #682
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    south of the border
    Posts
    23,858

    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    The Dallas Cowboys put up great individual numbers but guess what......they are sitting home for the playoffs. One thing the numbers don't tell you is team chemistry. Great numbers don't mean crap if you don't have chemistry.
    In football that is true. It is a true team sport where on every play 11 players must work together to accomplish a single task. Baseball is basically a team made up of 9 individual players and is mostly made of individual exploits. It is nothing like the true team game that football is.

  9. #683
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Shelburne Falls, MA
    Posts
    12,216

    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    Without hope, you die inside.

    I understand the downside of the Taveras acquisition. But it does not determine how much I look forward to baseball, or how much I will enjoy following the team. When I see threads like this one, it just pushes me away from the board -- there's too much defeatism here... people abandoning the team over a single player, people attacking others' sense of hope. Not healthy, in my opinion.

  10. #684
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Shelburne Falls, MA
    Posts
    12,216

    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    Blind hope
    Just because you cannot muster it, does not mean it is less than whole.

  11. #685
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    56,986

    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    When Adam Dunn and Football and playoffs were brought into the conversation concerning Wily Taveras I'd have to say that this thread officially has jumped the shark.

    BTW is that the same Adam Dunn that Krusty pimped for Edwin Jackson for 3 off season?

  12. #686
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    7,441

    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    people abandoning the team over a single player, people attacking others' sense of hope.
    Except that it isn't about one player. It's about a 8 year span of many dumb player (and in some cases managerial) moves.

    Taveras is just the latest addition to the list.

  13. #687
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Shelburne Falls, MA
    Posts
    12,216

    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    Except that it isn't about one player. It's about a 8 year span of many dumb player (and in some cases managerial) moves.

    Taveras is just the latest addition to the list.
    I suppose. Still, the attacks on hope and optimism are wearying. We're talking about fandom of a sports team here, not investing the family nest egg.

    In the end, I do hope those that cannot bear the Taveras acquisition will choose to follow another team, as several have claimed they will. This is supposed to be fun, after all.

  14. #688
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    7,719

    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    One myth we should probably dispel is that Baker played Patterson repeatedly over better options last year and continued to bat him leadoff despite Patterson going 0 for the rest of the season.

    If we remember, Patterson started out pretty hot. There was a one week stretch early in the season where he batted around .400. But after May 10, Patterson only led off 12 times.

    As a comparison, Jay Bruce led off 22 times in his time last year.

    Quite honestly, Patterson played because the Reds needed a warm body. Hairston was in and out of the lineup all season(and covering every other hole imaginable when he was playing.) Freel was out for the season, Dickerson came, led off and then was hurt for pretty much all of September. Bruce was hurt at the end of the season. Unless the Reds were going to bring up Stubbs and have him patrol half the outfield with Hairston taking the other half, there would have to be three outfielders, Patterson was if nothing else durable.
    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRed27 View Post
    Honest I can't say it any better than Hoosier Red did in his post, he sums it up basically perfectly.

  15. #689
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    56,986

    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    In the end, I do hope those that cannot bear the Taveras acquisition will choose to follow another team, as several have claimed they will. This is supposed to be fun, after all.
    I dare em to walk away, especially if they spend every late summer saying... Yay the Bengals start soon so I'm outta here.

    Reds have lost 100 games once in their history, I'm still here after that.. one thing I have to note... if anyone leaves because of the last 8 years I can't blame them, but good luck not giving a crap, because you can't control that and post on RZ that's for sure.

  16. #690
    Member RollyInRaleigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Posts
    15,738

    Re: Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

    I'll be following the Reds. I just may not visit Redszone as often. The negativity and "know it all's" and "told you so's" can drag you down.


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | Gallen5862 | Plus Plus | Powel Crosley | RedlegJake | The Operator