Don't give up on the board Durl. Just mostly ignore the polls. Generally, they are poorly thought out, seldom offer apppropriate responses and, bye and large, are knee-jerk reactions to a particular point. That's not to knock anyone that wants to start a poll but, generally, I recognize them for what they are and avoid them. I may make a comment but there are only a few polls that I actually vote in.Originally Posted by durl
Rem
So, now to my comment on this poll: as disappointed I am that Walt chose to sign Tavaras I think it's way too early to grade Walt.
I'll wait to see who shows up on the field at ST.
Rem
You can come and kick my dog while you're at it if you want.
See Ya.
I guess I'm not really sure what ther big deal is.
It's a message board discussing baseball.
Someone started a poll with a valid question for fans to discuss and weigh in on.
Again, what is the big deelio?
Why would I want to kick your dog? I acknowledged in my original post, which you convenietly deleated, that you, or anyone, can start a poll. They just aren't usually very well thought out or presented. (famous shrug)
BTW, I love dogs and have actually worked for/with a Nobel Peace Prize winner. How about you?
Rem
The rubric says that a D means "Need improvement, quick". This summarizes my feelings about the team right now succinctly. Get a big bat, and I can up the grade.
It is on the whole probable that we continually dream, but that consciousness makes such a noise that we do not hear it. Carl Jung.
Ditto.
The question is, indeed, valid. The option to fire the GM before he even fields a team at Spring Training is, quite frankly, absurd.
I'm not trying to be argumentative and I hope I don't come across as blasting the OP. It's just my opinion that firing the GM at this stage is inconceivable and illogical. In other words, it ain't gonna happen. So why even bring it up?
Last edited by durl; 12-28-2008 at 11:37 PM.
I guess I feel that saying Walt's done an "amazing" job (grade A) is equally absurd, so at least the absurity goes both ways.
It is a grade card though, and what would a grade card be without an "A" or an "F"?
What I want to know is why are we just grading Jocketty?
Why not some of this "love" being directed at Mr "Win Now" who I place a majority of the blame on?
It's like going after the dog because the cat's litter box stinks.
"In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)
Jocketty has done nothing, Krivsky showed a talent to find hidden jewels in other teams systems. Sorry but the man has done what exactly? Show me how beyond riding the coat tails of his previous realm's gm's he has made this team better" FCB this is a direct call out since you have gushed how he was so special as the Card's gm.
The man is non progressive and has the equal mind of Dusty Baker and that sir is not good.
2006 Redzone mock Draftee's- 1(st) Daniel Bard(redsox), 1(st sup)( Jordan Walden (Angels), 2(nd) rd.- Zach Britton(Orioles), 3(rd) Blair Erickson(Cardinals), 3(rd) Tim Norton( Yankees),(cuz its a Tim Hortons thing
Pain heals. Chicks dig scars. Glory... lasts forever.
Bingo! The market right now is not favorable to a GM like Jocketty. Here is an evaluation of Jocketty that I saved after he succeeded Krivsky....
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/0...gunn-on-w.html
Jocketty built arguably the premier National League franchise of this decade. Since 2000, the Cardinals own more regular-seasons wins than any other NL team, won more playoff games, won more league titles, and, of course, won it all in 2006.
How did Jocketty do it? First of all, he was fearless. A master wheeler-dealer, nobody did a better job turning lemons into lemonade, often flipping questionable talent for marquee players.
Consider:
Jocketty landed, via trade, Mark McGwire, Jim Edmonds, Edgar Renteria, Darryl Kile, Scott Rolen, Dennis Eckersley, Todd Stottlemyre, Fernando Vina, Larry Walker, Will Clark, Adam Wainwright, and Woody Williams.
Here are the most notable players he gave up to get them: Eric Ludwick, T.J. Mathews, Kent Bottenfield, Adam Kennedy, Braden Looper, Pablo Ozuna, Manny Aybar, Jose Jimenez, Placido Polanco, Bud Smith, Steve Montgomery, Jay Witasick, Juan Acevedo, Chris Narveson, Jose Leon one year of J.D. Drew, and the waning days of Ray Lankford’s career.
It’s an astonishing haul. Generally Jocketty would use the same formula: go after some established but under appreciated star, give up a few middling prospects for him, let him soak in the cozy St. Louis fan experience, win ballgames, re-sign the guy to an extension (often with a hometown discount), win more ballgames, then repeat the whole process as one big feedback loop. Jocketty was a master at that (and he was probably the best trading-deadline dealer there ever was – that’s how he got McGwire, Clark, Williams, Rolen, Walker, Chuck Finley, and Fernando Tatis).
Jocketty’s other big strength? Cobbling together a pitching staff on the cheap. It took him a while to get the hang of it – Cards’ hurlers in the ‘90s were usually awful. But Jocketty, along with rehab specialists Tony La Russa and pitching coach Dave Duncan, were able to buy low for arms like Chris Carpenter, Jeff Suppan, and Darryl Kile, and let them succeed in front of those reliable St. Louis infielders. At its best it worked beautifully. For example, in 2005 the Cards led the majors in ERA with a starting rotation that cost, altogether, $17 million – or less than what Roger Clemens alone made that year.
JOCKETTY’S WEAKNESSES
He was never that great at developing talent from within. Oh sure, he had his moments – he drafted and signed both Rick Ankiel and J..D. Drew when other teams wouldn’t touch ‘em for fear of being out-negotiated by Scott Boras. And of course, Jocketty was responsible for Albert Pujols, merely the best player in the league, if not all of baseball. But by and large the Cards’ cupboard ran rather bare during the Jocketty years. Baseball America has recently ranked them near the bottom of all major-league farm systems, and the Cards have been especially weak locating talent overseas. Perhaps that’s the flipside of Jocketty’s wheeling-and-dealing prowess – it gave him a sense that the team didn’t need to develop from within in order to succeed.
Jocketty’s other big weakness was that he tended to construct rather shallow rosters. Often the ballclub would be led by big shots like Pujols, Edmonds, and Rolen, while the margins were raggedy at best. Cards fans no doubt remember some of the team’s biggest playoff games left in the hands of shlubs like Craig Paquette, Garrett Stephenson, or Jason Marquis. To be fair, however, Jocketty improved in this area over the last couple years. The Cards’ bench and bullpen were among the best in the league this past year, and role players were crucial to winning the World Series in 2006.
---------------
The problem is.... Cincinnati is not St Louis East.
Last edited by GAC; 12-29-2008 at 07:44 AM.
"In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)
How can you possibly grade a guy whose first product has yet to take the field? I'll answer the poll in Nov 2009...at most, I'd give him a mid-season evaluation. I've abstained.
"This field, this game, is a part of our past. It reminds us of all that once was good, and what could be again." -- Terence Mann
Reading this all the while knowing in the back of my head that LaRussa has a pretty sound philosophy for the most part and that Dave Duncan has a reputation for getting something out of nothing I have a real hard time with giving Walt too much of that credit. So far all I see is a guy that is good at trusting those around him, who is good at seeing obvious talent. I think his value to a club lies in his ability to communicate to the press, fans, and more importantly his peers both inside and out of the organization.Bingo! The market right now is not favorable to a GM like Jocketty. Here is an evaluation of Jocketty that I saved after he succeeded Krivsky....
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/0...gunn-on-w.html
Jocketty built arguably the premier National League franchise of this decade. Since 2000, the Cardinals own more regular-seasons wins than any other NL team, won more playoff games, won more league titles, and, of course, won it all in 2006.
How did Jocketty do it? First of all, he was fearless. A master wheeler-dealer, nobody did a better job turning lemons into lemonade, often flipping questionable talent for marquee players.
Consider:
Jocketty landed, via trade, Mark McGwire, Jim Edmonds, Edgar Renteria, Darryl Kile, Scott Rolen, Dennis Eckersley, Todd Stottlemyre, Fernando Vina, Larry Walker, Will Clark, Adam Wainwright, and Woody Williams.
Here are the most notable players he gave up to get them: Eric Ludwick, T.J. Mathews, Kent Bottenfield, Adam Kennedy, Braden Looper, Pablo Ozuna, Manny Aybar, Jose Jimenez, Placido Polanco, Bud Smith, Steve Montgomery, Jay Witasick, Juan Acevedo, Chris Narveson, Jose Leon one year of J.D. Drew, and the waning days of Ray Lankford’s career.
It’s an astonishing haul. Generally Jocketty would use the same formula: go after some established but under appreciated star, give up a few middling prospects for him, let him soak in the cozy St. Louis fan experience, win ballgames, re-sign the guy to an extension (often with a hometown discount), win more ballgames, then repeat the whole process as one big feedback loop. Jocketty was a master at that (and he was probably the best trading-deadline dealer there ever was – that’s how he got McGwire, Clark, Williams, Rolen, Walker, Chuck Finley, and Fernando Tatis).
Jocketty’s other big strength? Cobbling together a pitching staff on the cheap. It took him a while to get the hang of it – Cards’ hurlers in the ‘90s were usually awful. But Jocketty, along with rehab specialists Tony La Russa and pitching coach Dave Duncan, were able to buy low for arms like Chris Carpenter, Jeff Suppan, and Darryl Kile, and let them succeed in front of those reliable St. Louis infielders. At its best it worked beautifully. For example, in 2005 the Cards led the majors in ERA with a starting rotation that cost, altogether, $17 million – or less than what Roger Clemens alone made that year.
JOCKETTY’S WEAKNESSES
He was never that great at developing talent from within. Oh sure, he had his moments – he drafted and signed both Rick Ankiel and J..D. Drew when other teams wouldn’t touch ‘em for fear of being out-negotiated by Scott Boras. And of course, Jocketty was responsible for Albert Pujols, merely the best player in the league, if not all of baseball. But by and large the Cards’ cupboard ran rather bare during the Jocketty years. Baseball America has recently ranked them near the bottom of all major-league farm systems, and the Cards have been especially weak locating talent overseas. Perhaps that’s the flipside of Jocketty’s wheeling-and-dealing prowess – it gave him a sense that the team didn’t need to develop from within in order to succeed.
Jocketty’s other big weakness was that he tended to construct rather shallow rosters. Often the ballclub would be led by big shots like Pujols, Edmonds, and Rolen, while the margins were raggedy at best. Cards fans no doubt remember some of the team’s biggest playoff games left in the hands of shlubs like Craig Paquette, Garrett Stephenson, or Jason Marquis. To be fair, however, Jocketty improved in this area over the last couple years. The Cards’ bench and bullpen were among the best in the league this past year, and role players were crucial to winning the World Series in 2006.
---------------
The problem is.... Cincinnati is not St Louis East.
He just comes off as the kind of guy you hire to manage a car lot but not rely on him selling any cars himself but to put people in place who can and help them do their job. But I will admit I am not 100% sure of that, but it's a hunch I have and one he hasn't dispelled yet IMO.
"You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."
--Woody Hayes
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