Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

[remdog]

I thought the Willie Tavaras was pathetic in Houston. I thought he was wasted space in Colorado. Now he is pathetic wasted space in Cincinnati.

What sins did Reds fans commit to deserve this? Somewhere along the line we clearly P.O.'d the baseball gods.

Rem

[Raisor]

BF and his buddies over at Reds.com love this move.


That should tell ya somethin'.

So I guess THEY are thanking YOU!

[Ron Madden]

So I guess THEY are thanking YOU!

I tell ya I'm innocent. Innocent I tell ya.

[cincinnati chili]

If Cincinnati Chili were the manager of this team, he'd love to have Wily as his fourth or fifth outfielder. He's good to insert in late innings, and for spot starts behind pitchers who give up a lot of fly balls. But like Clint Hurdle, Dusty Baker will start him whenever he's healthy, despite having better options.

When the Rockies went on their mad September run in 2007, winning 14 of their last 15, Wily was on the shelf.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/...ol&season=2007
Spilborghs's offense more than made up for Wily's superior defense.

I'm not a long term believer in Dickerson, but Wily is not the answer, particularly if a bona fide left fielder isn't brought in.

[remdog]

When the Rockies went on their mad September run in 2007, winning 14 of their last 15, Wily was on the shelf.

So, I guess the next question is: what SERP agent will take on the task of 'shelving' Willie---preferably for the whole season.

Rem

[Raisor]

So, I guess the next question is: what SERP agent will take on the task of 'shelving' Willie---preferably for the whole season.

Rem

Someone the rest of us won't miss. We need a patsy. Maybe they can reinstate Bad Fundamentals for a one time job.

[TRF]

Here is how lifetime stats for a player with 4 seasons can be misleading. If I have done the math right his speed adjusted OPS for a 162 game average is .758: .313 OBP, .445 SLG. But 2007 skews the data a bit due to games played. At least IMO. I do think Taveras became a better base stealer, and I think he did that in 2007, not 2008. Again, games played. He played in almost 50 fewer games in 2007 than in 2006 but stole the same number of bases. Something clicked in 2007, and base stealing is speed + instincts + coaching. But in order for him to have a speed adjusted OPS similar to a non speed adjusted OPS that anyone would consider acceptable, Taveras needs a 90% SB percentage, AND he needs 60+ SB's. He needs quantity and quality to achieve what other leadoff hitters equal or better without the SB's.

He needs to suddenly learn how to take a walk at twice the rate he has at this point in his career.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Can you please explain how basepath speed helps when it's sitting in the dugout after an inordinate amount of Plate Appearances? Your entire position doubles back upon itself when we run into that not-so-tiny fundamental point.

He's fast, but doesn't get on base so the speed argument is pretty much moot. Willy Taveras doesn't put any pressure on the opposing defense. He only pressures his own offense because they have to somehow make up for his lack of anything resembling even a mediocre offensive game.

Yes, he does get on base. Just not as much as you apparently want him to. .330 obp is not ideal, I'm not an idiot...but it's also far from horrible. Heck, we really only had a half dozen guys on the Reds who were better than that last year. Edwin, Jr., Votto, Dunn & Hairston and a few parttimers. .308 was his low point. I'd expect him to go back to his norms. Sure, it'd be great if it was better, but saying he doesn't get on base is an exaggeration. Walks or no walks, he's still normally a .280 hitter. Only Votto & Hairston did better than .280 last season. I see THAT as a bigger problem than his walks. As a team we don't get hits. Now if we compensated with tons of walks...fine. But we don't. So we need to get some guys who can hit for a decent average at least. And other than last season, he's proven he can do that. Hell, even look at last season's .251 avg....that was still better than half our team. Is he a savior...hell no. But he's far from the plague that people here are making him out to be.

[Raisor]

Yes, he does get on base. Just not as much as you apparently want him to. .330 obp is not ideal, I'm not an idiot...but it's also far from horrible. Heck, we really only had a half dozen guys on the Reds who were better than that last year. Edwin, Jr., Votto, Dunn & Hairston and a few parttimers. .308 was his low point. I'd expect him to go back to his norms. Sure, it'd be great if it was better, but saying he doesn't get on base is an exaggeration. Walks or no walks, he's still normally a .280 hitter. Only Votto & Hairston did better than .280 last season. I see THAT as a bigger problem than his walks. As a team we don't get hits. Now if we compensated with tons of walks...fine. But we don't. So we need to get some guys who can hit for a decent average at least. And other than last season, he's proven he can do that. Hell, even look at last season's .251 avg....that was still better than half our team. Is he a savior...hell no. But he's far from the plague that people here are making him out to be.

How about if I can show that 08 was just Willy returning to his norm?

Let me use a slightly different number, RC per 100 PA.

05 11.01 (66.06 per 600 pa)
06 11.11 (66.66 per 600 pa)
07 14.09 (84.54 per 600 pa)
08 10.54 (63.24 per 600 PA)

[Cedric]

He doesnt hit or walk enough. Pretty simple to figure out that he is not the answer. This ballclub needs real talent. Not just some ideological idea of talent from 1984.

Yes, he does get on base. Just not as much as you apparently want him to. .330 obp is not ideal, I'm not an idiot...but it's also far from horrible. Heck, we really only had a half dozen guys on the Reds who were better than that last year. Edwin, Jr., Votto, Dunn & Hairston and a few parttimers. .308 was his low point. I'd expect him to go back to his norms. Sure, it'd be great if it was better, but saying he doesn't get on base is an exaggeration. Walks or no walks, he's still normally a .280 hitter. Only Votto & Hairston did better than .280 last season. I see THAT as a bigger problem than his walks. As a team we don't get hits. Now if we compensated with tons of walks...fine. But we don't. So we need to get some guys who can hit for a decent average at least. And other than last season, he's proven he can do that. Hell, even look at last season's .251 avg....that was still better than half our team. Is he a savior...hell no. But he's far from the plague that people here are making him out to be.

[Johnny Footstool]

nothing good about this. we know taveras can't hit. all the metrics say taveras is a poor fielder. so basically, the reds paid actual money to score fewer runs and allow more runs. for the next two years.

and some of you thought juan rivera was a bad gamble...

[gonelong]

I am starting to wonder if what ails Mike Brown is communicable.

GL

[KronoRed]

I am starting to wonder if what ails Mike Brown is communicable.

GL

Same here.

What a waste of time and cash, why not just bring Patterson back and be done with it?

Pfft.

[Raisor]

Same here.

What a waste of time and cash, why not just bring Patterson back and be done with it?

Pfft.

As bad of an idea is what to sign Patterson, at least that was only a one year deal.

[SteelSD]

Yes, he does get on base. Just not as much as you apparently want him to. .330 obp is not ideal, I'm not an idiot...but it's also far from horrible.

It's something that's completely unacceptable given the lack of OBP on the current Reds' team. You simply can't give leadoff-level PA to a guy with that OBP and no SLG while expecting to have anything except a poor offense given the Reds' current mix of players.

Heck, we really only had a half dozen guys on the Reds who were better than that last year. Edwin, Jr., Votto, Dunn & Hairston and a few parttimers. .308 was his low point. I'd expect him to go back to his norms.

And as previously stated, his norms are completely unacceptable for this ballclub. Considering he Caught Stealing rate, the guy makes an out about 7 out of 10 times he comes to the plate. Speed doesn't make up for that and what you've just noted is actually an argument against adding another low-OBP player to a team already plagued by them.

Sure, it'd be great if it was better, but saying he doesn't get on base is an exaggeration. Walks or no walks, he's still normally a .280 hitter. Only Votto & Hairston did better than .280 last season. I see THAT as a bigger problem than his walks. As a team we don't get hits.

When you make Outs 70% of the time, it's not an exaggeration to state that a guy isn't acceptable offensively and particularly at the top of a batting order.

Now if we compensated with tons of walks...fine. But we don't.

And adding a plate discipline-challenged low-SLG player makes up for that exactly how? Willy Taveras isn't a guy who'll provide a high-BA/high-OBP projectible mix to the club, so he needs those missing Walks to produce Runs for the club.

So we need to get some guys who can hit for a decent average at least. And other than last season, he's proven he can do that. Hell, even look at last season's .251 avg....that was still better than half our team. Is he a savior...hell no. But he's far from the plague that people here are making him out to be.

Oh, he's a plague of the worst kind. You've done a lot to attempt to disparage the value of Walks in this thread, but you've avoided the concept that a big chunk of Taveras' BA is virtually hollow. He's nothing but a Singles hitter at his best and a big chunk of that is bunting for a hit. In fact, during his best BA season, a full 31% of Taveras' Base Hits were by bunting himself on, which basically replicate the effect of a Base on Balls. Cut the bunting luck overage away from 2007 and you're left with a line of .271 BA/.333 OBP/.344 SLG. I can't possibly believe you'd support the acquisition of a plyer with a line like that as being anything other than AAA filler. He's Juan Pierre-lite.