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Thread: why is Andre Dawson not in the HOF?

  1. #1
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    why is Andre Dawson not in the HOF?

    career OPS+ 119
    1591 rbis
    438 HR
    314 SB with 74% success rate
    8 All Star games
    One MVP award. #2 in MVP voting a different year.
    ROY
    Four GGs in CF & four more in RF.

    Compared to Perez he has a similar lifetime OPS+ , HR and rbi totals.
    He had speed and great defense which Tony didn't have.
    .

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  3. #2
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: why is Andre Dawson not in the HOF?

    Because he made an out 70% of the time he came to the plate is my best guess.

    Most hits in MLB history with a .325 ob% or less

    Code:
    CAREER
    OBA <= .325
    
    HITS                             H       OBA    
    1    Brooks Robinson            2848     .322   
    2    Andre Dawson               2774     .323   
    3    Bill Buckner               2715     .321   
    4    Luis Aparicio              2677     .311   
    5    Rabbit Maranville          2605     .318   
    6    Willie Davis               2561     .311   
    7    Dave Concepcion            2326     .322   
    8    Gary Gaetti                2280     .308   
    9    Tommy Corcoran             2252     .289   
    10   Marquis Grissom            2251     .318
    Last edited by westofyou; 12-31-2008 at 06:52 PM.

  4. #3
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: why is Andre Dawson not in the HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Because he made an out 70% of the time he came to the plate is my best guess.

    Most hits in MLB history with a .325 ob% or less

    Code:
    CAREER
    OBA <= .325
    
    HITS                             H       OBA    
    1    Brooks Robinson            2848     .322   
    2    Andre Dawson               2774     .323   
    3    Bill Buckner               2715     .321   
    4    Luis Aparicio              2677     .311   
    5    Rabbit Maranville          2605     .318   
    6    Willie Davis               2561     .311   
    7    Dave Concepcion            2326     .322   
    8    Gary Gaetti                2280     .308   
    9    Tommy Corcoran             2252     .289   
    10   Marquis Grissom            2251     .318
    so what? OPS+ is the stat to measure hitters not OBP. his OPS+ puts him in HOF territory. add in his gold gloves & speed and he should be in the HOF.
    .

  5. #4
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: why is Andre Dawson not in the HOF?

    Setting aside the issue of whether OPS+ is really the stat you want to use, 119 isn't close to making a HOF argument. Other guys of the era with a career OPS+ of 119 include Andy Van Slyke, Chris Hoiles, and Paul O'Neil (120). 119 is in the solidly above average category.

    I agree that the Hawk merits consideration for many of the reasons you mentioned, but OPS+ is hardly the best argument.

    Baseball-Reference's HOF monitoring stats tell a similar tale:

    Black Ink: Batting - 11 (208) (Average HOFer ≈ 27)
    Gray Ink: Batting - 164 (67) (Average HOFer ≈ 144)
    HOF Standards: Batting - 44.1 (106) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
    HOF Monitor: Batting - 117.5 (121) (Likely HOFer > 100)

    Basically, it looks like there's a case to be made, but he's hardly a slam-dunk.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  6. #5
    You're being very UnDude. sonny's Avatar
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    Re: why is Andre Dawson not in the HOF?

    He has not amassed enough votes to get in. But thats just my best guess.
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  7. #6
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: why is Andre Dawson not in the HOF?

    I believe that Andre Dawson is more deserving of HOF induction than are contemporary outfielders Jim Rice, Dave Parker and Dale Murphy. Dawson's career numbers were hurt by his having Montreal as his home park for most of his prime seasons (although he did benefit from having Wrigley Field later in his career). Dawson was having perhaps his finest season in 1981, but the strike/lockout wiped out a third of the schedule. BaseballReference.com's Stats Neutralizer shows Dawson as having a 40 HR/43 SB season in 1981 had the full schedule been played and had Dawson played in a neutral park in a 715 runs per team era.
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    High five! nate's Avatar
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    Re: why is Andre Dawson not in the HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Will M View Post
    so what? OPS+ is the stat to measure hitters not OBP. his OPS+ puts him in HOF territory. add in his gold gloves & speed and he should be in the HOF.
    Here are all the non-pitchers in the hall with a sub .325 OBP:

    Code:
    Spanning Multiple Seasons or entire Careers, 
    From 1901 to 2008, 
    Hall Of Fame Members, 
    Played 50% of games at C, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, LF, CF, RF, DH, or OF, 
    (requiring OBP<=.325), 
    sorted by greatest BA
    
    
      Cnt Player              BA   OBP  From  To
    +----+-----------------+-----+-----+----+----+
        1 Brooks Robinson    .267  .322 1955 1977 
        2 Luis Aparicio      .262  .311 1956 1973 
        3 Bobby Wallace      .262  .325 1901 1918 
        4 Joe Tinker         .262  .308 1902 1916 
        5 Bill Mazeroski     .260  .299 1956 1972 
        6 Dick Williams      .260  .312 1951 1964 
        7 Rabbit Maranville  .258  .318 1912 1935 
        8 Bill McKechnie     .251  .301 1907 1920 
        9 Jim O'Rourke       .250  .250 1904 1904 
       10 Leo Durocher       .247  .299 1925 1945 
       11 Branch Rickey      .239  .304 1905 1914 
       12 Sam Thompson       .226  .250 1906 1906 
       13 Sparky Anderson    .218  .282 1959 1959 
       14 Willard Brown      .179  .179 1947 1947 
       15 Walter Alston      .000  .000 1936 1936 
       16 Dan Brouthers      .000  .000 1904 1904
    Even thought that's parsed to non-pitchers, some of those guys aren't in the hall because of what they did on the field so in reality, it's even a smaller list. Is .325 a magic bar for HoF induction? No. But the greatest hitters of all time will have a career of that kind of production and better.
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

  9. #8
    Haunted by walks
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    Re: why is Andre Dawson not in the HOF?

    Because he's not famous?

    Don't mind me. I'm alone in my beliefs on this one.

  10. #9
    Member klw's Avatar
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    Re: why is Andre Dawson not in the HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
    Because he's not famous?

    Don't mind me. I'm alone in my beliefs on this one.
    Atually I kind of feel the same way. I think that this really should point to guys like Rose, Canseco and McGuire being in the Hall. My guess is Dawson is not in the Hall is because it is 9pm on New Year's Eve and the place is locked up for the night. Rose I could see being in there. He probably snuck in to lurk around.

  11. #10
    Member GADawg's Avatar
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    Re: why is Andre Dawson not in the HOF?

    which kind of hall of fame mindset do you have?

    I heard Bob Boone talking about the HOF the other day and he considers the Hall strictly a museum and feels they should enshrine many people each year(maybe he's trying to figure a way in). OTOH many believe(myself included)that the Hall is and should be the path to immortality and that the criteria should be very stringent. Someone(maybe Billy Ripken)was saying that when they look down the list of those eligible that they ask whether or not that player is worthy of standing beside the likes of Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, etc..etc..


    The latter mindset would end the arguments on alot of the fringe players like Dawson and leave the Hall to the Griffey's of the world while the Bob Boone mindset would make for some long induction days around Cooperstown.

    Which do you prefer?

  12. #11
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: why is Andre Dawson not in the HOF?

    Good question Dawg.

    Personally, I am all for inducting a lot of players. Adding someone like Dawson doesn't take anything away from a guy like Clemente or Ruth or Williams. It would however add more to the HOF in terms of more baseball history and I am all for that. I understand that eventually that would lead to a space problem, but thats not a concern of mine to deal with either.

  13. #12
    Member kpresidente's Avatar
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    Re: why is Andre Dawson not in the HOF?

    Maybe notable players who aren't HOF worthy should have a seperate induction. Vince Coleman comes to mind. Not a HOF career by any stretch, but all those SBs are something people will talk about for years and years. It's a part of baseball history. Also leaves a place for guys like Bonds and Clemens, who don't deserve the honor of being a HOFer, but their careers can't be ignored.

  14. #13
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: why is Andre Dawson not in the HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by GADawg View Post
    OTOH many believe(myself included)that the Hall is and should be the path to immortality and that the criteria should be very stringent. Someone(maybe Billy Ripken)was saying that when they look down the list of those eligible that they ask whether or not that player is worthy of standing beside the likes of Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, etc..etc..


    The latter mindset would end the arguments on alot of the fringe players like Dawson and leave the Hall to the Griffey's of the world while the Bob Boone mindset would make for some long induction days around Cooperstown.
    The Hall of Fame has not had the "very stringent" criteria whereby an Andre Dawson can be considered a mere "fringe" player for more than a half century. If you want to limit the HOF to the Ruths and Ted Williamses, then expell Ray Schalk, Joe Tinker, Fred Lindstrom, Lloyd Waner, Phil Rizzuto, Pop Haines, Waite Hoyt, Rube Marquard, Herb Pennock, Eppa Rixey, Joe Kelley, Jim Bottomley, Johnny Evers, Earle Combs, Elmer Flick, Red Faber, Travis Jackson, Chick Hafey, Kirby Puckett, Catfish Hunter, Joe Gordon, Frank Chance, Jim Bunning, and a score of other current Hall of Famers whose careers fell far short of being Ruth or Williams.
    Andre Dawson is, in my opinion, a borderline Hall of Fame candidate, but, if inducted, he sure would not be the worst guy there.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  15. #14
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: why is Andre Dawson not in the HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    The Hall of Fame has not had the "very stringent" criteria whereby an Andre Dawson can be considered a mere "fringe" player for more than a half century. If you want to limit the HOF to the Ruths and Ted Williamses, then expell Ray Schalk, Joe Tinker, Fred Lindstrom, Lloyd Waner, Phil Rizzuto, Pop Haines, Waite Hoyt, Rube Marquard, Herb Pennock, Eppa Rixey, Joe Kelley, Jim Bottomley, Johnny Evers, Earle Combs, Elmer Flick, Red Faber, Travis Jackson, Chick Hafey, Kirby Puckett, Catfish Hunter, Joe Gordon, Frank Chance, Jim Bunning, and a score of other current Hall of Famers whose careers fell far short of being Ruth or Williams.
    Andre Dawson is, in my opinion, a borderline Hall of Fame candidate, but, if inducted, he sure would not be the worst guy there.
    Dawson's career stacks up well with other guys already in the HOF.
    You can say that he was very good but not great but several other very good players are already in the HOF. I bring up Perez as an example. If Perez is in Dawson should be in.
    .

  16. #15
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: why is Andre Dawson not in the HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    Andre Dawson is, in my opinion, a borderline Hall of Fame candidate, but, if inducted, he sure would not be the worst guy there.
    Pretty much my feelings to. Sure his OPS is lousy but 400 HR's, 1500 RBI's, 300 SB's and 8 Gold Gloves pretty much speaks for itself.

    I think Dawsons biggest problem is a large part of his success was played in relative obscurity in Montreal. The same could be said for Raines. Had they had pin stripes on their uniforms they likely would have been first balloters.
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