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Thread: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    Soto reminds me of Cueto. Put up great numbers in the minors, had awesome talent, and was underrated because of the organization he played in.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    Soto is six months older than Vitters:

    Neftali Soto - minor league career:

    .327/.360/.522 - .882 OPS in 437 AB

    Josh Vitters - minor league career:

    .290/.327/.435 - .762 OPS in 324 AB
    Excellent comparison. I used to like comparing EdE and BA darling Andy Marte, both 3B and about the same age, as they climbed the minors. Marte was consistently near/at the top of his league and very high in the top 100, while EdE would crack a list here or there, but only near the bottom. Not sure if he ever got top 100 status.

    Soto v Vitters is a great matchup.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Excellent comparison. I used to like comparing EdE and BA darling Andy Marte, both 3B and about the same age, as they climbed the minors. Marte was consistently near/at the top of his league and very high in the top 100, while EdE would crack a list here or there, but only near the bottom. Not sure if he ever got top 100 status.

    Soto v Vitters is a great matchup.
    Thank you so much for bringing that up. I drove myself crazy over the years wondering how Marte was so highly rated while EdE was overlooked.

    Let's check out the rankings by Baseball America:

    Andy Marte:

    2003 - 40th ranked MLB
    2004 - 11th ranked MLB
    2005 - 9th ranked MLB
    2006 - 14th ranked MLB

    Edwin Encarnacion:

    2005 - 56th ranked MLB

    Edwin cracked the top 100 once, in 2005 at #56. Marte was never rated below 40 and peaked at #9. EdE and Marte were similar in age, statistics, and had similar skill sets yet Marte was routinely rated as an elite prospect while Edwin was continuously overlooked.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    Thank you so much for bringing that up. I drove myself crazy over the years wondering how Marte was so highly rated while EdE was overlooked.

    Let's check out the rankings by Baseball America:

    Andy Marte:

    2003 - 40th ranked MLB
    2004 - 11th ranked MLB
    2005 - 9th ranked MLB
    2006 - 14th ranked MLB

    Edwin Encarnacion:

    2005 - 56th ranked MLB

    Edwin cracked the top 100 once, in 2005 at #56. Marte was never rated below 40 and peaked at #9. EdE and Marte were similar in age, statistics, and had similar skill sets yet Marte was routinely rated as an elite prospect while Edwin was continuously overlooked.
    Minor League Career
    EE: .291/.352/.451
    Andy Marte: .271.347/.476

    Coming into 2006, Marte was the much better hitter. He was coming off of hitting .275/.372/.506 at age 21 in AAA. His minor league numbers would have been much better at that point in time too because he's been terrible since 2005 when he has been sent back to AAA. Plus, he's regarded as an excellent fielder while EE obviously has had his struggles.

    Marte is one of those players I have a hard time understanding. He was terrorizing the minors at a very young age, hit the show, struggled, and since then has continued to struggle at AAA. How can you hit .275/.372/.506 as a 21 year-old at AAA and then struggle to OPS over .750 when you return at an older age? Did the opposing pitchers just "figure" him out? Is there something wrong with him? Normally you expect players to become more productive when they are older than their peers...
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    Marte was a fine prospect but he wasn't that much better than Edwin. IIRC Marte was more physically advanced than EdE so his present power was better at the time. The difference between them wasn't large enough for one to be a top 15 prospect and the other not even in the top 100. JMO.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    Coming into 2006, Marte was the much better hitter.
    The numbers do not show that. EdE was a year older, but both were very young for their leagues.

    2002 (both at low A)
    (18) Marte -- .281/.336/.492
    (19) EdE -- .282/.333/.458

    2003 (both at high A)
    (19) Marte -- .285/.375/.469
    (20) EdE -- .321/.389/.484

    2004 (both at AA)
    (20) Marte -- .269/.364/.525
    (21) EdE -- .281/.354/.443

    2005 (both at AAA)
    (21) Marte -- .275/.372/.506
    (22) EdE -- .314/.388/.548
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    Marte was a fine prospect but he wasn't that much better than Edwin. IIRC Marte was more physically advanced than EdE so his present power was better at the time. The difference between them wasn't large enough for one to be a top 15 prospect and the other not even in the top 100. JMO.
    Defense? When one guy is a very good fielder and another is a very bad fielder that can make a big difference...
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    Defense? When one guy is a very good fielder and another is a very bad fielder that can make a big difference...
    EdE was not known as a deficient fielder in the minors, In fact, they tried him at SS for awhile. He was known as athletic with a strong arm.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    The numbers do not show that. EdE was a year older, but both were very young for their leagues.

    2002 (both at low A)
    (18) Marte -- .281/.336/.492
    (19) EdE -- .282/.333/.458

    2003 (both at high A)
    (19) Marte -- .285/.375/.469
    (20) EdE -- .321/.389/.484

    2004 (both at AA)
    (20) Marte -- .269/.364/.525
    (21) EdE -- .281/.354/.443

    2005 (both at AAA)
    (21) Marte -- .275/.372/.506
    (22) EdE -- .314/.388/.548
    Marte was better in 2002, EE only had 215 ABs in A in 2003 before struggling at AA, Marte was far superior in 2004, and again with EE it was only 290 ABs in 2005.

    With how bad his defense is, 2005 is the only year EE should have been in the Top 100 Prospects IMO...
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    EdE was not known as a deficient fielder in the minors, In fact, they tried him at SS for awhile. He was known as athletic with a strong arm.
    Exactly.

    EdE/Marte were similar prospects. Edwin has turned out to be the better major leaguer to this point.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    Marte was better in 2002, EE only had 215 ABs in A in 2003 before struggling at AA, Marte was far superior in 2004, and again with EE it was only 290 ABs in 2005.
    Marte posted a slightly better SLG than EdE in 2002. Otherwise, a wash.

    While both were in high A in 03, EDE was slightly better across the board. A half-season is a legit sample. EdE's struggles in AA are irrelevant.

    In 04, Marte was better.

    In 05, for the 1/2 season EdE was in AAA, EdE was better. 290 ABs is a legit sample.

    Your contention was that prior to 06 Marte was "the much better hitter." It's just not true.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    EdE/Marte were similar prospects. Edwin has turned out to be the better major leaguer to this point.
    And it hasn't been close.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    EdE was not known as a deficient fielder in the minors, In fact, they tried him at SS for awhile. He was known as athletic with a strong arm.
    Yep, this is what BA said about him, "Defensively he has a plus arm, quick hands and middle-infield actions."

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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    Quote Originally Posted by *BaseClogger* View Post
    Marte was better in 2002, EE only had 215 ABs in A in 2003 before struggling at AA, Marte was far superior in 2004, and again with EE it was only 290 ABs in 2005.

    With how bad his defense is, 2005 is the only year EE should have been in the Top 100 Prospects IMO...
    Edwin ranked in the Top 100 after his 2004 season. He didn't qualify after his 2005 season because he just missed the at-bats cutoff. He would have ranked in the top 30 after that season though.

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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    Soto 20th? That list is an embarrassment, IMO. I'm sure he's got Josh Vitters ahead of Soto.
    8 guys ahead of Alonso? Really? I wish I could see the entire list because I just can't imagine 8 guys being ahead of Alonso.

    I will give them Rasmus, Alvarez and McCutcheon. After that I just don't see it, much less another 4 guys.

    National League Central Top 15 Prospects

    1. Colby Rasmus - CF - Cardinals
    2. Pedro Alvarez - 1B - Pirates
    3. Andrew McCutchen - CF - Pirates
    4. Yonder Alonso - 1B - Reds
    5. Mat Gamel - OF - Brewers
    6. Brett Wallace - 3B - Cardinals
    7. Neftali Soto - 3B - Reds
    8. Josh Vitters - 3B - Cubs
    9. Alcides Escobar - SS - Brewers
    10. Drew Stubbs - CF - Reds
    11. Jeremy Jeffress - RHSP - Brewers
    12. Todd Frazier - 3B - Reds
    13. Angel Salome - C - Brewers
    14. Chris Perez - RHRP - Cardinals
    15. Daryl Jones - CF - Cardinals

    Thats what I have. Whats even more strange though is that Callis oversees all of the Team Top 10's and can make adjustments when he see's fit. He didn't have an issue ranking Yorman Rodriguez 5th ahead of Lotzkar and Soto, but now those guys are listed and Yorman isn't? Confusion is setting in.


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