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Thread: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

  1. #46
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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    8 guys ahead of Alonso? Really? I wish I could see the entire list because I just can't imagine 8 guys being ahead of Alonso.

    I will give them Rasmus, Alvarez and McCutcheon. After that I just don't see it, much less another 4 guys.
    Yep. That's just an awful list. Alonso should definitely be in the top five.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

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  3. #47
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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    8 guys ahead of Alonso? Really? I wish I could see the entire list because I just can't imagine 8 guys being ahead of Alonso.

    I will give them Rasmus, Alvarez and McCutcheon. After that I just don't see it, much less another 4 guys.

    National League Central Top 15 Prospects

    1. Colby Rasmus - CF - Cardinals
    2. Pedro Alvarez - 1B - Pirates
    3. Andrew McCutchen - CF - Pirates
    4. Yonder Alonso - 1B - Reds
    5. Mat Gamel - OF - Brewers
    6. Brett Wallace - 3B - Cardinals
    7. Neftali Soto - 3B - Reds
    8. Josh Vitters - 3B - Cubs
    9. Alcides Escobar - SS - Brewers
    10. Drew Stubbs - CF - Reds
    11. Jeremy Jeffress - RHSP - Brewers
    12. Todd Frazier - 3B - Reds
    13. Angel Salome - C - Brewers
    14. Chris Perez - RHRP - Cardinals
    15. Daryl Jones - CF - Cardinals

    Thats what I have. Whats even more strange though is that Callis oversees all of the Team Top 10's and can make adjustments when he see's fit. He didn't have an issue ranking Yorman Rodriguez 5th ahead of Lotzkar and Soto, but now those guys are listed and Yorman isn't? Confusion is setting in.
    I guess BA took the list down. I don't know the order for sure but I know the players. I believe this is very close to being the order. I don't konw if he had Andrew Cashner in the 20's instead of the place I put Taylor Green.
    1. Colby Rasmus
    2. Pedro Alvarez
    3. Brett Wallace
    4. Alcides Escobar
    5. Andrew McCutchen
    6. Josh Vitters
    7. Matt Gamel
    8. Yonder Alonso
    9. Brett Lawrie
    10. Todd Frazier
    11. Jason Castro
    12. Chris Perez
    13. Jeff Sarmardjia
    14. Jeremy Jeffress
    15. Jose Tabata
    16. Drew Stubbs
    17. Brad Lincoln
    18. Bryan Morris
    19. Chris Valakia
    20. Neftali Soto
    21. Jess Todd
    22. Angel Salome
    23. Clayton Mortesen
    24. Daryl Jones
    25. Neil Walker
    26. Bryan Anderson
    27. Dae-Hun Rhee
    28. Taylor Green
    29. Bud Norris
    30. Juan Francisco
    31. Kyle Lotzkar

  4. #48
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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    I knew it! Vitters #6 and Soto all the way down at #20 despite Soto having similar (or better) tools and clearly outplaying Vitters to this point in their careers.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    Quote Originally Posted by New Fever View Post
    I guess BA took the list down. I don't know the order for sure but I know the players. I believe this is very close to being the order. I don't konw if he had Andrew Cashner in the 20's instead of the place I put Taylor Green.
    1. Colby Rasmus
    2. Pedro Alvarez
    3. Brett Wallace
    4. Alcides Escobar
    5. Andrew McCutchen
    6. Josh Vitters
    7. Matt Gamel
    8. Yonder Alonso
    9. Brett Lawrie
    10. Todd Frazier
    11. Jason Castro
    12. Chris Perez
    13. Jeff Sarmardjia
    14. Jeremy Jeffress
    15. Jose Tabata
    16. Drew Stubbs
    17. Brad Lincoln
    18. Bryan Morris
    19. Chris Valakia
    20. Neftali Soto
    21. Jess Todd
    22. Angel Salome
    23. Clayton Mortesen
    24. Daryl Jones
    25. Neil Walker
    26. Bryan Anderson
    27. Dae-Hun Rhee
    28. Taylor Green
    29. Bud Norris
    30. Juan Francisco
    31. Kyle Lotzkar
    Seriously, my brain hurts right now trying to figure out how Clayton Mortensen is basically ranked as high as Neftali Soto, or how Brett Wallace who was drafted after Yonder Alonso ranks 5 spots ahead of him in just the NL Central. Or how a shortstop who projects to OPS about .775 (Escobar) ranks ahead of Alonso, even if he has good defense. Or how a reliever is basically rated the same as Todd Frazier (Perez). Or how Vitters is ranked that far ahead of Soto.

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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    Clayton Mortensen turns 24 in April.

    2008 stats:

    139.2 IP, 146 H, 18 HR, 64 BB/105 K, 4.96 ERA

    Mechanical issues, bad control/command dating back to college, and a two pitch pitcher. Why is he even in the top 33? Clayton Mortensen is Jordan Smith without control.
    Last edited by OnBaseMachine; 01-21-2009 at 06:05 PM.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    I agree. Don't get me wrong, I actually like Mortensen.... but he isn't nearly as good as some of the guys he is ranked around.

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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    or how Brett Wallace who was drafted after Yonder Alonso ranks 5 spots ahead of him in just the NL Central.
    Laughable.

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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Thats not how BA does things. They rate guys on potential. They don't care if you are far from it or not. They have two guys under 18 rated in the top 9 who have so much further to go than Mesoraco its not funny. They just put a lot of emphasis into upside with their rankings. Even if they don't think Devin will be ready for 4 more years, but think he will be fine when he does get there, then he is going to be ranked on what they feel the final product is.
    If that's the case that they're judging them as "their potential Major League career", then I agree with their assessment on Mesoraco.

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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    I knew it! Vitters #6 and Soto all the way down at #20 despite Soto having similar (or better) tools and clearly outplaying Vitters to this point in their careers.
    I'm sorry but this post cracks me up! I totally agree with you, but I get this image of you sitting at your computer saying "I swear if Baseball America ranks Vitters ahead of Soto, I'm gonna..."

    It just struck me as funny.

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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    That link is now working:

    http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/bir...l-for-context/



    Within his top 30 — and it should be stressed that these are his rankings, not the BA rankings that are the product of an editorial consensus — here are the team totals:

    Cardinals … 7
    Cincinnati … 6
    Milwaukee … 6
    Pittsburgh … 5
    Cubs … 4
    Houston … 2
    The Cardinals edge both Cincinnati and Milwaukee for the most prospects on Callis’ list. But even that is misleading. While the Cardinals have two of the top three prospects, Milwaukee has the better high-end total. The Brewers claim three of Callis’ top 10. Cincinnati has five of the top 20 in Callis’ list. As further evidence of the kind of depth the Cardinals’ have in the system, they have four players ranked between 21 and 27.

    “My Top 30 list for the NL Central shows how the Cardinals stand out compared to the rest of the division,” Calllis wrote in an email that accompanied his top 30. “They’ve got the best up-the-middle prospect in Colby Rasmus and two of the three best prospects in Rasmus and Brett Wallace. When I put this together, I was surprised how hitting-heavy the division is. Chris Perez is my top pitching prospect in the NL Central, and the Cardinals also led all clubs with seven prospects on my Top 30.”

    Without further prelude, here is Callis’ NL Central Top 30 (with Nos. 31, 32 and 33 as lagniappe):

    1. Pedro Alvarez, 3b, Pirates — Signing-bonus snafu delayed his debut, but Pirates are prepared to push their No. 1 pick (No. 2 overall) all the way to Class AA out o spring training.
    2. Colby Rasmus, of, Cardinals
    3. Brett Wallace, 3b, Cardinals
    4. Alcides Escobar, ss, Brewers — Made MLB debut after hitting .328/.363/.434 in AA.
    5. Andrew McCutchen, of, Pirates — Considered the second-best prospect in the International League behind Cincinnati rookie Jay Bruce, who exhausted his eligibility for this list. Plus runner who will hit for average.
    6. Josh Vitters, 3b, Cubs — Drafted third overall in 2007, was top prospect in Northwest League. Prototypical third baseman gets first extended look at full-season baseball this summer.
    7. Mat Gamel, 3b, Brewers
    8. Yonder Alonso, 1b, Reds
    9. Brett Lawrie, c/3b, Brewers — Became highest ever Canadian position player selected in the draft when Milwaukee took him 16th overall. He ranked ninth this year on The Toronto Sun’s annual list of most influential Canadians in baseball.
    10. Todd Frazier, inf, Reds

    11. Jason Castro, c, Astros — A polished player fresh from college, Castro was the top-rated prospect in the New York-Penn League and then hit .333/.438/.487 in Hawaii this winter.
    12. Chris Perez, rhp, Cardinals
    13. Jeff Samardzija, rhp, Cubs — Wide receiver. Notre Dame. Setup or starter. You know.
    14. Jose Tabata, of, Pirates — Was the No. 3 prospect in the New York Yankees organization a year ago; acquired in Xavier Nady deal and took off after change-of-scenery with .348/.402/.562 line in 22 games with Pittsburgh’s Altoona affiliate.
    15. Jeremy Jeffress, rhp, Brewers
    16. Drew Stubbs, of, Reds — Worth repeating correctly: When I first wrote this I blended my stories, and I apologize for that. OK. Take 2: Stubbs was the first-round pick in 2006, and Jay Bruce was the player the Cardinals coveted in 2005. It was the interest in Bruce that sent the Cardinals on search that landed Rasmus. A year later, Stubbs comes along as another guy the Cardinals eyed as more polished outfielder prospect to add and the Reds took him, too. Got my stories straight. Apologize for the blending. Head’s swimming with prospect names today.
    17. Brad Lincoln, rhp, Pirates
    18. Andrew Cashner, rhp, Cubs
    19. Chris Valaika, ss, Reds
    20. Neftali Soto, 3b, Reds

    21. Jess Todd, rhp, Cardinals
    22. Angel Salome, c, Brewers — Added to the Brewers’ 40-man roster. Nicknamed “Pocket Pudge,” Salome was suspended 50 games after testing positive for a performance-enhancing drug. He returned and hit .360/.415/.559 in 367 at-bats (98 games) at Class AA.
    23. Neil Walker, 3b, Pirates
    24. Daryl Jones, of, Cardinals
    25. Bryan Anderson, c, Cardinals
    26. Dae-Eun Rhee, rhp, Cubs — Signed out of Korea to a $525,000 bonus in July of 2007, Rhee allowed one run in his first three minor-league starts and then had elbow trouble. That led to Tommy John surgery and 2009 will be spent recovering. He’ll turn just 20 in March.
    27. Clayton Mortensen, rhp, Cardinals
    28. Bud Norris, rhp, Astros
    29. Lorenzo Cain, of, Brewers
    30. Juan Francisco, 3b, Reds — A product of Cincinnati’s efforts in Latin America, Francisco finished fourth in the Florida State League with 23 home runs in 2008. In 2007, he led the Midwest League in homers and he has 48 total in his past two seasons. Raw power compares well to recent Reds’ rookies. And then there are his 284 strikeouts in the past two seasons.

    31. Kyle Lotzkar, rhp, Reds
    32. Ross Seaton, rhp, Astros
    33. Jason Motte, rhp, Cardinals

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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    Some classic Callis in the ranking of Cubs prospects Vitters (yet to log a year in a full season league) at 6 and Dae-Eun Rhee at 26. Rhee, 19, had 3 minor league appearances followed by TJ surgery and is out till 2010.

    Reminds me of how a couple years ago he had the Cubs' system ranked middle of the pack based on headliners Felix Pie, Mark Pawelek (HS pitcher who has pretty much busted before reaching low A) and "depth." If not quite that egregious, his bias here is plain to see.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    From the Pittsburgh Post recently (Monday), on Alvarez:

    http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09019/942792-63.stm

    Alvarez, a third baseman who was the Pirates' first-round draft pick last June, reported to minicamp last week in Bradenton, Fla., overweight and not at his usual strength. That also was the case, though apparently to a greater degree, when he reported to the Florida Instructional League in late September for his first professional action.

    Coonelly pointed, as have others in the organization, to what he described as Alvarez's lack of activity during the high-profile three-month contract dispute last summer between the team and Scott Boras, Alvarez's agent. Alvarez ended up with a four-year, major league contract that included a $6 million signing bonus.

    "We were disappointed, when we finally got Pedro signed to a contract, in his physical condition at the time," Coonelly said. "It had been represented to us by his representative that he had been working extraordinarily hard while we were negotiating. Pedro came in and was not in good condition."
    Perhaps Callis/BA might wait to see what guys look like in the spring before working on a ranking?
    Last edited by membengal; 01-22-2009 at 09:46 AM.

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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal View Post
    From the Pittsburgh Post recently (Monday), on Alvarez:

    http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09019/942792-63.stm



    Perhaps Callis/BA might wait to see what guys look like in the spring before working on a ranking?
    I don't think he should wait to see, he has enough information on the guys... I just question his judgment on the placement of these guys.

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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    Well, if Alvarez has "work ethic" issues, that will impact where he should be in rankings, no?

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    Re: Baseball America's J.J. Cooper discusses Reds farm system with C. Trent

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal View Post
    Well, if Alvarez has "work ethic" issues, that will impact where he should be in rankings, no?
    Not exactly.... because even with that, his skill is still at a certain point. With good work ethic it may be higher, but its still very high with his current situation. I think its a little early to suggest his work ethic is something or another right now though.


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