Turn Off Ads?
Page 6 of 10 FirstFirst ... 2345678910 LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 150

Thread: Erardi- "Speed and defense": Is the defense as good as we're being told?

  1. #76
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    21,390

    Re: Erardi- "Speed and defense": Is the defense as good as we're being told?

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool View Post
    Right, but the general perception of Taveras is that he is a *good* defender, not just adequate.

    His speed makes him better in CF, that point is undeniable. But it still doesn't make him good.

    Also, if he played in a corner OF spot where his speed couldn't cover up his shortcomings, then he might not be a plus defender at all.
    But in the corner he'd be compared to a whole different set of defenders talent wise. He'd probably grade significantly better in a corner than he would in center a a result.
    "This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner


  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #77
    Member Will M's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    4,544

    Re: Erardi- "Speed and defense": Is the defense as good as we're being told?

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Wrong. A good scout who sees enough of a player will be a reliable judge of the player's defensive ability.
    agree. we didn't need stats to see Jr had poor range, Kep has poor range, Ross couldn't catch a ball to make a play at the plate,etc. if you watch a team for 162 games a year you will have a pretty good idea of who can play defense and who can't.
    .

  4. #78
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Bristol, just around the corner from ESPN
    Posts
    8,694

    Re: Erardi- "Speed and defense": Is the defense as good as we're being told?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRM View Post
    I agree. Lots and lots of fans would disagree though. Guys like Freel were almost always viewed as good OF defenders based solely on their speed.
    The difference with Freel was that his motor never stopped, and he would dive for anything, anywhere.

    ... even if that meant into the stands @ Dodgers Stadium (IIRC) while playing RF and breaking an old woman's arm.

    Freel almost could make up for the scenic routes he took to balls b/c of his recklessness/fearlessness.

    Other speedsters, not so much. They end up just looking really fast, running in the wrong direction/area while not catching balls.

  5. #79
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Bristol, just around the corner from ESPN
    Posts
    8,694

    Re: Erardi- "Speed and defense": Is the defense as good as we're being told?

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    I think a real case in point is Norris Hopper. Pretty speedy, terrible defender.
    Quoted for truth.

    If we thought Freel took scenic routes to balls, if Norris Hopper were giving you directions to get from Cincinnati to Florida, he'd take you by way of Canada.

  6. #80
    he/him *BaseClogger*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    7,795

    Re: Erardi- "Speed and defense": Is the defense as good as we're being told?

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Wrong. A good scout who sees enough of a player will be a reliable judge of the player's defensive ability.
    I definitely agree. I never thought I would read someone say that scouts can't give us an indication of a player's fielding ability. Sure, I wouldn't ask a scout to accurately rank the five best fielding shortstops in the AL, but they can certainly give us an idea of what kind of defensive skills a Reds player has after watching them for 162 games. Geez...

  7. #81
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    In Your Head
    Posts
    10,764

    Re: Erardi- "Speed and defense": Is the defense as good as we're being told?

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Wrong. A good scout who sees enough of a player will be a reliable judge of the player's defensive ability.
    Those same scouts have helped the Reds produce one of the worst defensive teams of this decade.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams

  8. #82
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    49,393

    Re: Erardi- "Speed and defense": Is the defense as good as we're being told?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    Those same scouts have helped the Reds produce one of the worst defensive teams of this decade.
    You are now making a large assumption that those teams were going for defense too. Odds are they weren't given they started EE, Keppinger, Dunn and Griffey all out of position last year and the big three out of position for the better part of 4 years running.

  9. #83
    he/him *BaseClogger*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    7,795

    Re: Erardi- "Speed and defense": Is the defense as good as we're being told?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    Those same scouts have helped the Reds produce one of the worst defensive teams of this decade.
    Steel, this statement seems contradictory to "correlation does not imply causation", which I know for a fact is a phrase you live by...

  10. #84
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    In Your Head
    Posts
    10,764

    Re: Erardi- "Speed and defense": Is the defense as good as we're being told?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    You are now making a large assumption that those teams were going for defense too. Odds are they weren't given they started EE, Keppinger, Dunn and Griffey all out of position last year and the big three out of position for the better part of 4 years running.
    Oh, right. Every regime, including Jocketty's 2008 club, had no possible idea of defensive value even though the UZR guru was hired by Jocketty's Cardinals in the first place.

    But the Scouts are solid!
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams

  11. #85
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Melbourne, FL
    Posts
    5,042

    Re: Erardi- "Speed and defense": Is the defense as good as we're being told?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    Those same scouts have helped the Reds produce one of the worst defensive teams of this decade.
    Well, he did say GOOD scouts... :
    Reading comprehension is not just an ability, it's a choice

  12. #86
    Member RedsManRick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Guelph, ON
    Posts
    19,441

    Re: Erardi- "Speed and defense": Is the defense as good as we're being told?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    Oh, right. Every regime, including Jocketty's 2008 club, had no possible idea of defensive value even though the UZR guru was hired by Jocketty's Cardinals in the first place.

    But the Scouts are solid!
    IIRC, Jocketty left in part because his stat guys were making noise that he wasn't listening to them...
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  13. #87
    he/him *BaseClogger*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    7,795

    Re: Erardi- "Speed and defense": Is the defense as good as we're being told?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    IIRC, Jocketty left in part because his stat guys were making noise that he wasn't listening to them...
    "I think that we had a little different philosophy and vision with respect to some baseball issues," [owner Bill] DeWitt said. "There was clearly tension that was reported widely, not only locally but nationally in the organization. While I've said on several occasions that tension is in every organization, I do think it got to the point with the Cardinals that is was counter-productive. We couldn't achieve our objectives given what was going on inside the organization."
    http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/new...=.jsp&c_id=stl

  14. #88
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    In Your Head
    Posts
    10,764

    Re: Erardi- "Speed and defense": Is the defense as good as we're being told?

    Quote Originally Posted by *BaseClogger* View Post
    Steel, this statement seems contradictory to "correlation does not imply causation", which I know for a fact is a phrase you live by...
    Is there somehow any way the Reds can possibly make up for not drafting Jered Weaver and Tim Lincecum versus the alternatives? Is there somehow any possible way that the Reds could have failed even more recently with their draft picks and development given the options that have been literally handed to them on silver platters?

    Quote Originally Posted by IslandRed View Post
    Well, he did say GOOD scouts... :
    Yeah. Still waiting for those guys. But at least we spent a few million bucks internationally on kids who'll have to wait quite a few years to drink legally.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams

  15. #89
    he/him *BaseClogger*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    7,795

    Re: Erardi- "Speed and defense": Is the defense as good as we're being told?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    Is there somehow any way the Reds can possibly make up for not drafting Jered Weaver and Tim Lincecum versus the alternatives? Is there somehow any possible way that the Reds could have failed even more recently with their draft picks and development given the options that have been literally handed to them on silver platters?
    Hey, all I'm saying is that there is no proof that the Reds have been a poor fielding team for the last decade because scouts aren't reliable gauges of defensive ability...

  16. #90
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    In Your Head
    Posts
    10,764

    Re: Erardi- "Speed and defense": Is the defense as good as we're being told?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    IIRC, Jocketty left in part because his stat guys were making noise that he wasn't listening to them...
    There's a point at which the game simply passes by someone.

    As a Steeler's fan, I saw that with Chuck Noll. As a Reds' fan, I've seen that with pretty much every GM hired this century.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | Gallen5862 | Plus Plus | Powel Crosley | RedlegJake | The Operator