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Thread: Super Bowl Sunday (My Own Personal Hell)

  1. #106
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Super Bowl Sunday (My Own Personal Hell)

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Tucker View Post
    Puffy, obviously you never attended a Browns-Steelers game at old Cleveland Municipal Stadium. I can't say "classy" could decribe any of the fan behavior there, Browns or Steelers. Nasty, rude, obnoxious, and downright violent is more like it. Also great fun
    The only way to play rival football.

    I actually had a co-worker several years ago go to a Browns-Steelers game in Cleveland and sit in the Dawg Pound in full Steeler regalia. Security actually had to intervene and "escort" the poor fool out of there because they almost killed him.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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  3. #107
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Super Bowl Sunday (My Own Personal Hell)

    Quote Originally Posted by macro View Post
    Yes, they won four titles in the 70s and two in the last four seasons, but the quarter century in-between was nothing legendary.
    It would be to Brown/Bengal fans.

    Heck! We'll even settle for consecutive seasons with an above .500 record right now!

    All franchises have gone through periods of sucktitude. I remember the Patriots of days old.

    The question is..... when is it going to end for our Ohio teams? When is it our turn? :
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  4. #108
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    Re: Super Bowl Sunday (My Own Personal Hell)

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    The question is..... when is it going to end for our Ohio teams? When is it our turn? :
    The 50's & 60's for the Browns.

    The 80's for the Bengals.

    Oh wait, that happened last century when there was a guy named Paul Brown around......

    Rem

  5. #109
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    Re: Super Bowl Sunday (My Own Personal Hell)

    Quote Originally Posted by macro View Post
    I'm not so sure about the "unquestioned" part, Caveat. At the very distinct risk of sounding like a sour-grapes Bengals fan who's cherry picking his time periods to make a point (which I undoubtedly am ), I will point out that:
    Well lets take a look at some of those cherries in your picker...

    In the 12 seasons from 1980-91, they won 10 or more games in a season only once.
    Well, that's true but it does include the strike season of 1982, where they only played nine games. During that 12-year span, the Steelers produced only 4 sub-.500 seasons while also making the playoffs 4 times (one AFC Championship game <loss>). IMHO, the true test of a great franchise isn't just how they perform during an up-cycle, but how they perform during a down-cycle. They weren't awesome over those 12 years, but if you're good enough to produce .500 or better seasons 67% of the time while making the Playoffs 33% of the time after your "Dynasty" team got old, that's good enough to keep me interested.

    Team in down-cycle produces 93-91 record over 12 years, makes the playoffs 4 times and outscores their opponents by 120 points over that span. Only two 10-loss seasons.

    Enter the Bill Cowher era...

    In the 25 seasons from 1980-2004, they played in only one Super Bowl and lost it.
    Yep. That's true. Yet, again, that time frame begins after their "Dynasty" seasons and even during that time frame, the Steelers played well enough to produce a record of 223 Wins and 168 Losses with a point differential of +837. The Cowher years up to 2004 produced 130 Wins versus 77 Losses and a Point Diff of +717.

    During those 25 years, the Steelers played in 25% of the AFC Championship games. They made the playoffs in 15 of those 25 years (60%). In 9 of those 25 years (36%), Steelers fans were treated to multiple Playoff games.

    More recently, in the period from 2003-06, they finished tied with or below the lowly Cincinnati Bengals in the standings three out of four seasons.
    Yes, they won four titles in the 70s and two in the last four seasons, but the quarter century in-between was nothing legendary.
    Adding in the 2005 to 2008 data and we get the following over the last 29 seasons:

    Wins: 264
    Losses: 191
    Playoff Games: 31
    Points For: 9653
    Points Against: 8399
    AFC Championship Games: 7
    Super Bowls: 3
    Super Bowl Wins: 2
    Sub-.500 Seasons: 7

    Longest Wait for a Steelers Fan for a Playoff Game: 4 Seasons (1985-1988).

    Do we need to add the 1979 Steelers to make it a clean 30 years? Would that be good or bad? :
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  6. #110
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Super Bowl Sunday (My Own Personal Hell)

    Quote Originally Posted by cincrazy View Post
    I like Kurt Warner a lot, but I have a hard time putting him in the Hall of Fame. Only five times in his career has he surpassed 12 passing td's in a season. Also, there were several points in his career (the end of his St. Louis tenure, his entire time with the Giants, the beginning of his Arizona era) where I didn't consider him a good qb. He's had some amazing seasons and is an outstanding field leader, but I don't think the body of work constitutes a Hall of Fame nod.
    Let me ask you a question. If Warner's last name was Manning would he be in the HOF? IMO if Warner had a NFL name like Manning he would have won the MVP this year (another topic another debate) which would have him a 3 time NFL MVP and have been to 3 Super Bowls. His postseason resume would be greater than Payton, Marino, and Favre. He did so leading two of the worst franchises, not named the Lions, to the Super Bowl. Too often we look at pure passer numbers instead of winning when looking at QB's. As much as I dislike Big Ben he just has that winners mentality. The same can be said about Warner when healthy, he wins.

  7. #111
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    Re: Super Bowl Sunday (My Own Personal Hell)

    Kurt Warner has played in three Super Bowls and has passed for more than 300 yards in each of those games, the only QB to ever have three 300+ yard games in Super Bowl history. He is also the career leader in Super Bowl passing yards with 1156, having passed for more yards than did Joe Montana or John Elway, even though Montana played in 4 Super Bowls and Elway played in 5.
    That obviously doesn't mean that Warner is a better QB than were Montana or Elway or even that Warner should be in the HOF, but I was surprised to learn that he holds those records.
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  8. #112
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    Re: Super Bowl Sunday (My Own Personal Hell)

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    He now also owns the #1, #2, and #3 best passing (yards) performances in Super Bowl history.

    I think Warner's in.
    I didn't see CE's post before making my most recent post.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  9. #113
    Just The Big Picture macro's Avatar
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    Re: Super Bowl Sunday (My Own Personal Hell)

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    Do we need to add the 1979 Steelers to make it a clean 30 years? Would that be good or bad?
    Nah, I don't want to include any of that 70s stuff or recent stuff in this discussion.



    Seriously, though, your points are well-made and well-taken, and that's why I wanted to be transparent about my motives. I guess I'm just a Bengals fan trying to find consolation for my misery. In a typical season, my consolation prize following another Bengals disaster is to see Pittsburgh eliminated. Now I have to wait another twelve months (at least) to claim the consolation prize again.

    You know, it's a sorry state of affairs for a fan when your only enjoyment comes from another team's failure, but I don't think Bengals fans can hope for anything more.
    Last edited by macro; 02-03-2009 at 01:42 PM.

  10. #114
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    Re: Super Bowl Sunday (My Own Personal Hell)

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Let me ask you a question. If Warner's last name was Manning would he be in the HOF? IMO if Warner had a NFL name like Manning he would have won the MVP this year (another topic another debate) which would have him a 3 time NFL MVP and have been to 3 Super Bowls. His postseason resume would be greater than Payton, Marino, and Favre. He did so leading two of the worst franchises, not named the Lions, to the Super Bowl. Too often we look at pure passer numbers instead of winning when looking at QB's. As much as I dislike Big Ben he just has that winners mentality. The same can be said about Warner when healthy, he wins.
    Well Roger Maris hit 61 and he's not in the hall... isn't doesn't take away from his accomplishments, but the OVERALL body of work just isn't there. If it was Kurt Manning, do I think he's a Hall of Famer? No. It has nothing to do with last name. I'm one of Kurt's biggest fans, but I don't believe in his Hall candidacy, at least at this moment in time. True, he took two historically bad teams to the Super Bowl. But that's the key word, HISTORICALLY bad teams, not bad teams at the time. The Rams were loaded with talent, and IMO if Trent Green never gets hurt, he takes them to the Super Bowl. And this Cards team, with Fitz and Anquan and Breaston and so on... again, I'm not trying to downplay his accomplishments. But I just don't see him as a Hall of Famer. From 2002-2006, he threw 27 touchdowns TOTAL. That is a remarkably large chunk of mediocrity for a Hall of Famer.

  11. #115
    My clutch is broken RichRed's Avatar
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    Re: Super Bowl Sunday (My Own Personal Hell)

    Warner's definitely an interesting case. In addition to the accomplishments already mentioned, he's #1 all-time in passing yards per game, #5 all-time in passing yards per attempt and #2 all-time in completion percentage.

    Yet I have a hard time getting past the fact that he's only started 85 regular season games, or the equivalent of 5 1/2 full seasons, and that he's been almost as likely over the course of his career to have a bad-to-mediocre year as a good-to-great one.

    Like I said, four really top-notch seasons (2000 was good, as well, but a pedestrian 21/18 TD/INT ratio) out of seven years in which he played 10 games or more.

    I think he'll get in the HOF no matter what but I just don't think I could personally vote for him without another season or two like he had in '07 and '08.
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  12. #116
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    Re: Super Bowl Sunday (My Own Personal Hell)

    Quote Originally Posted by cincrazy View Post
    ... From 2002-2006, he threw 27 touchdowns TOTAL. That is a remarkably large chunk of mediocrity for a Hall of Famer.
    Quote Originally Posted by RichRed View Post
    Warner's definitely an interesting case. In addition to the accomplishments already mentioned, he's #1 all-time in passing yards per game, #5 all-time in passing yards per attempt and #2 all-time in completion percentage.

    Yet I have a hard time getting past the fact that he's only started 85 regular season games, or the equivalent of 5 1/2 full seasons, and that he's been almost as likely over the course of his career to have a bad-to-mediocre year as a good-to-great one. ...
    To me this is what it comes down to. While Kurt Warner has some things in his favor to make the HOF he also has some things going against him. He'll already be 38 this year with only 11 seasons in the NFL and there's a big difference between what he did in the five seasons that bookend his career ('99-'01 & '07-08) and the five seasons inbetween. There are other players that have had prolific seasons and accomplishments that aren't in the NFL (or MLB) HOF like Maris in baseball and Terrell Davis in the NFL. But, just like those players, Warner doesn't have enough productive seasons on his resume at this point to say that he'll be in the HOF. I don't think he was even in the NFL until he was 27. Since his body didn't take the pounding in his early to mid 20's like typical qbs maybe that will help him be able to add a few more good seasons. It would certainly help his chances alot.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

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    Re: Super Bowl Sunday (My Own Personal Hell)

    Steelers fans are obnoxious. I'll give you that.

    But it's a great thing to watch a successful organization like the Steelers win another Super Bowl. It's kind refreshing after watching how NOT to run an organization here in Cincinnati.

  14. #118
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Super Bowl Sunday (My Own Personal Hell)

    Quote Originally Posted by redsfandan View Post
    To me this is what it comes down to. While Kurt Warner has some things in his favor to make the HOF he also has some things going against him. He'll already be 38 this year with only 11 seasons in the NFL and there's a big difference between what he did in the five seasons that bookend his career ('99-'01 & '07-08) and the five seasons inbetween. There are other players that have had prolific seasons and accomplishments that aren't in the NFL (or MLB) HOF like Maris in baseball and Terrell Davis in the NFL. But, just like those players, Warner doesn't have enough productive seasons on his resume at this point to say that he'll be in the HOF. I don't think he was even in the NFL until he was 27. Since his body didn't take the pounding in his early to mid 20's like typical qbs maybe that will help him be able to add a few more good seasons. It would certainly help his chances alot.
    I guess my issue is he has won 2 MVP's and should have another one. If he had 5 continuous years of success would have be considered a HOF? When he is healthy and on the field he is one of the top QB's in the NFL. If Tom Brady were never to play another snap in the NFL would he be a HOF? He has 6 great seasons as opposed to Warner's 5. Warner will probably get a little boost from his great story and the person he is off the field.

  15. #119
    My clutch is broken RichRed's Avatar
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    Re: Super Bowl Sunday (My Own Personal Hell)

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    I guess my issue is he has won 2 MVP's and should have another one. If he had 5 continuous years of success would have be considered a HOF? When he is healthy and on the field he is one of the top QB's in the NFL. If Tom Brady were never to play another snap in the NFL would he be a HOF? He has 6 great seasons as opposed to Warner's 5. Warner will probably get a little boost from his great story and the person he is off the field.
    The difference for me is that Brady has never had a bad season, plus he's already started 26 more games than Warner has. Not to mention that Brady has three SB wins and four appearances overall.

    I have nothing against Warner; I just think he's borderline because of the relatively short and inconsistent regular season resume.
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    Re: Super Bowl Sunday (My Own Personal Hell)

    Quote Originally Posted by RichRed View Post
    The difference for me is that Brady has never had a bad season, plus he's already started 26 more games than Warner has. Not to mention that Brady has three SB wins and four appearances overall.

    I have nothing against Warner; I just think he's borderline because of the relatively short and inconsistent regular season resume.
    For arguments sake Brady's 01 season wasn't anything special. And you also have to consider that he missed this past season with injury similar to the games Warner missed due to injuries. For their careers Brady has a 92.9 QB rating compared to Warner's 93.8.

    I thought this comparison was apt because as of right now both have very similar numbers. Brady is much younger and has a much more promising career but many feel he is a HOF right now.

    As for Brady in the Super Bowl you could argue that even in Warner's losses he played better.


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