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Thread: Johnny Cueto

  1. #61
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Johnny Cueto

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Cloninger View Post
    How long are you going to harp on winter ball and WBC...when the player can, if he wants to, play in both? Is there a new rule that the player is not allowed to play in them if the club says no? If so....I apologize..but if not...blame the player for once and not the usual....it's the management/manager/front offices fault.
    I'm pretty sure the team can prevent a player from playing winter ball.

    I think he's hitting a wall. He's been pitching since December. His stuff has looked flat in his last couple starts.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

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  3. #62
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    Re: Johnny Cueto

    So we are not allowed to talk about how last year's career high in innings, following by winter ball, an early and then long spring training, and 107 innings to this point might have led to Cueto being worn down?

    Wow.

  4. #63
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Johnny Cueto

    Seems like a perfect time for the All-Star break.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

  5. #64
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    Re: Johnny Cueto

    Ddi i say we are not allowed to talk about it? What i don't like to hear is blaming this management for any little thing.

    I do not like them playing winter ball or in the WBC either..... but if they want to do it and there is not much to stop them from doing it, what are you going to do?

    I wish someone in the Reds media would clear this up so we know who to blame and then we can break them on the wheel.

  6. #65
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Johnny Cueto

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal View Post
    So we are not allowed to talk about how last year's career high in innings, following by winter ball, an early and then long spring training, and 107 innings to this point might have led to Cueto being worn down?

    Wow.
    Anyone is allowed to talk about it.

    Anyone is also allowed to point out that Cueto pitched a grand total of four (4) innings in the WBC.

    I can't speak for winter ball. But four innings? Non-starter, folks. To include WBC in this discussion over four innings is weak. Real, real weak.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  7. #66
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    Re: Johnny Cueto

    His spring started three weeks early and ran long. It's NOT the innings that Nate Silver (in an article on the 2006 WBC starting pitching debacle that I linked here in at least two threads) identified as the issue, it is the massive disruption to routine for the starters.

    And, NO, it was NOT ideal that the Reds fed (or had to feed) their two prized youngsters in the rotation to the WBC and its related disruption of routine, on top of winter ball, on top of a 2008 year where both Volquez and Cueto went to career highs in innings. It was NOT ideal, it was something outside the norm, and issues cropping up with Cueto looking gassed 108 innings into 2009 on top of all that? Not surprising.

  8. #67
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    Re: Johnny Cueto

    The massive disruption to routine for starting pitchers didn't seem to bother him at all until about 5 starts ago. Don't buy it.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

  9. #68
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Johnny Cueto

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal View Post
    His spring started three weeks early and ran long. It's NOT the innings that Nate Silver (in an article on the 2006 WBC starting pitching debacle that I linked here in at least two threads) identified as the issue, it is the massive disruption to routine for the starters.

    And, NO, it was NOT ideal that the Reds fed (or had to feed) their two prized youngsters in the rotation to the WBC and its related disruption of routine, on top of winter ball, on top of a 2008 year where both Volquez and Cueto went to career highs in innings. It was NOT ideal, it was something outside the norm, and issues cropping up with Cueto looking gassed 108 innings into 2009 on top of all that? Not surprising.
    With all due respect to Nate Silver, there's absolutely no proof that three extra weeks of throwing has any impact whatsoever on a pitcher. None.

    Pitchers that participate in the WBC would have worked up to their workload whether by WBC or spring training. It was a gradual process. Most pitchers throw before spring training on their own anyhow. It's not much of a disruption. I can't speak for winter ball, but this whole WBC is just people trying to create an issue that does not exist. It's a way to explain normal injury and regression patterns that happen to almost every pitcher on an annual basis. Twenty years ago, this would not have been an issue. The human body has not changed in 20 years.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  10. #69
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    Re: Johnny Cueto

    Cueto's fine. He wasn't going to pitch with an ERA under 3 for the entire year. He seems to be rushing and frustrated and that's understandable. He's 22, he will be fine.

    Dick Pole's time has come. He doesn't seem to get results, but he can only do so much.
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton

  11. #70
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    Re: Johnny Cueto

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpup View Post

    Dick Pole's time has come. He doesn't seem to get results, but he can only do so much.
    Yeah, the pitching's definitely been holding the team back this year. Oh wait, wait...

    And Brutus, I'm not sure if you read Nate Silver's article or not, but in it he describes a pretty high correlation (too high for coincidence IMO) to starters that pitch in the WBC and then go on to have sub-par or injury riddled seasons directly thereafter. Maybe it's the cause for Cueto's recent bout of awful and maybe it isn't, but to dismiss it entirely as rubbish is, well, a bit short-sighted IMO.

  12. #71
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    Re: Johnny Cueto

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    The massive disruption to routine for starting pitchers didn't seem to bother him at all until about 5 starts ago. Don't buy it.
    Because it added to a VERY long run of pitching on top of a career high in innings, and it, in my view, inevitably was going to lead to a point where he got tired.

    I don't care if I am alone in viewing it this way or not, I think anyone thinking Cueto, at his tender age, was going to sail through this year without wearing down given the fact that he's been pitching, more or less, since December, was being naive. Same with Volquez.

  13. #72
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    Re: Johnny Cueto

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    With all due respect to Nate Silver, there's absolutely no proof that three extra weeks of throwing has any impact whatsoever on a pitcher. None.

    Pitchers that participate in the WBC would have worked up to their workload whether by WBC or spring training. It was a gradual process. Most pitchers throw before spring training on their own anyhow. It's not much of a disruption. I can't speak for winter ball, but this whole WBC is just people trying to create an issue that does not exist. It's a way to explain normal injury and regression patterns that happen to almost every pitcher on an annual basis. Twenty years ago, this would not have been an issue. The human body has not changed in 20 years.
    Good grief. 20 years ago there was no WBC. The first WBC was in 2006. You don't need to be afraid of data to read data. Silver read the data in 2006, and posited a few explanations. We have more data now in 2009 to add to that.

    And my initial conclusion? It is less than IDEAL to run your two cornerstone young arms into that kind of unknown. I thought so before it happened. I thought so as it happened. And I think so now.

  14. #73
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    Re: Johnny Cueto

    Then blame Cueto for doing it and not the management....unless you have complete proof that they could have stopped him or forced him not to do it.

  15. #74
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    Re: Johnny Cueto

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Cloninger View Post
    Then blame Cueto for doing it and not the management....unless you have complete proof that they could have stopped him or forced him not to do it.
    From September 27th, 2008:

    WINTER PLANS: The Reds will allow both Johnny Cueto and Volquez to pitch winter ball.

    "We want them to do what they did last year," Baker said. "It worked for them big time. . . They came in spring training ready last year. Cueto made the team because he was ready."

    http://www.redszone.com/forums/showp...&postcount=434
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  16. #75
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    Re: Johnny Cueto

    I'm not too worried about Cueto yet. It could be just a bit of a dead arm period that he'll come out of after the AS break.


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