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Thread: The second-guessing game

  1. #61
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: The second-guessing game

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    Hey, it's the truth. I can criticize Cast and Walt too.

    Without Gonzo on the payroll, it becomes a lot easier to make some moves.

    Unloading Freel was a minor miracle, but we got stuck with an overpaid catcher.. Not bad, since Freel was a sunk cost, and Hernandez was only a small increment more, but not an optimal situation.

    I'd rather have a legitimate cleanup hitter than Cordero.

    I never understand why DanO and Bowden are fair game to criticize, yet Wayne is supposed to be immune. Wayne has proven that you can make the team substantially worse, despite upgrading the starting rotation.
    Its just that your arguments against Wayne have been hashed and rehashed time and time again. Im sorry it just seems like every once in a while you get in a "Wayne sucks" and then we get back into this same debate.

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  3. #62
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    Re: The second-guessing game

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Its just that your arguments against Wayne have been hashed and rehashed time and time again. Im sorry it just seems like every once in a while you get in a "Wayne sucks" and then we get back into this same debate.
    Yep.

    Can you imagine if Wayne Krivsky was still around and had the disastrous offseason that Jocketty had? We would've never heard the end of it, yet Jocketty gets a free pass full of excuses.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  4. #63
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: The second-guessing game

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Its just that your arguments against Wayne have been hashed and rehashed time and time again. Im sorry it just seems like every once in a while you get in a "Wayne sucks" and then we get back into this same debate.

    Wasn't trying to upset anyone. Just saying that Wayne commited a lot of money to the future. That directly impacted the amount of money Walt had to spend last offseason. In other words, it's not 100% Cast's fault for not spending the money.

    It's no different than pointing out that Milton's contract handcuffed payflex for 3 years.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

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  5. #64
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: The second-guessing game

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    Yep.

    Can you imagine if Wayne Krivsky was still around and had the disastrous offseason that Jocketty had? We would've never heard the end of it, yet Jocketty gets a free pass full of excuses.

    Nope, he does not get a free pass. I gave him a C- this offseason when we were asked. Most of the board seemed to give him a C or a D. How is that a free pass?

    Right now, the team seems to be performing above expectations. Walt should be praised for that (at least while it lasts).

    I don't think any of Wayne's teams finished above .500. I'm not sure this team will, but if it does, that's a nice accomplishment . IIRC, Wayne's W-L record got worse every year he was here. Even if we can't reach .500, if the W-L record improves despite losing Dunn/Jr and despite having relatively little money to spend this offseason.. that's a step forward at least.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

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  6. #65
    I'm gettin paper Homer Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: The second-guessing game

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    Actually, Rosales is one of the "bench" players and he is the starting 3B.

    Janish is out OPS'ing, Gonzalez, but I doubt you would have begged Dusty to start him at the beginning of the year. Anyway it looks like he will be starting some games due to Gonzalez's injury.

    Hanigan is hitting better than Hernandez, but he's a rookie and Hernandez was acquired to start this year, while the Reds break in Hanigan for the future.

    Nix is really the only guy who should get more playing time and Dusty the other day said he would. Hence the title of Hal's latest article:

    "Reds’ Nix to get more playing time"

    http://www.daytondailynews.com/dayto...me-107009.html

    Maybe one reason why they are OPS'ing so well is because they are being used properly, and if over used, their faults would show?

    And about putting "hot" players in the lineup, that's the philosophy that Boone and Narron used, and one reason why they are not managing today.
    If tonight isn't proof that Dusty doesn't know how to fill out a lineup card, I don't know what is.

    Hitting JHJ 2nd vs a righty, playing him at a position that he is terrible at, when we have a better defensive and offensive (right now) option in Janish.

    Still playing Dickerson over Nix despite the title of a Hal McCoy article. Tonight's lineup is one of the worst I've ever seen from Dusty, and that is saying something.

    The 8 and 4 hitters should be switched. What other manager fills out a lineup card where anyone can say that sentence?

  7. #66
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: The second-guessing game

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    If the Reds were willing to cough up 12 million, I think some of them would've listened. Probably not Ibanez or Dunn (who both wanted and got multi year deals). Probably Abreau. 7 million more would've probably turned his head.

    I agree with Atomic Dumpling. Cast just wasn't willing to put his money where his mouth was (at least for this year). Part of the blame also goes to Wayne for leaving us with relatively overpaid contracts (Freel, Gonzo, Cordero, and even Phillips).
    This continues to be a circular argument. It strikes me as so logical that the clubs course changed as the economy worsened; that management decided it was best to back off the original payroll budget and be more conservative. And yet that's considered not putting his money where his mouth is.

    I agree Freel never should have been extended. It was a mistake. Gonzo's signing has been hampered by circumstances and injury but made sense at the time, despite all the protestations here on RZ. Cordero is a legitimate argument and we all know the disagreements. I fully understand the "luxury" argument, but I'll still take him on a staff that is proving to be one of the best. And I'm just baffled by Phillips even being on such a list.

    And this will of course bring on the usual rebuttals and the circle will be unbroken.
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  8. #67
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: The second-guessing game

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    Wasn't trying to upset anyone. Just saying that Wayne commited a lot of money to the future. That directly impacted the amount of money Walt had to spend last offseason. In other words, it's not 100% Cast's fault for not spending the money.

    It's no different than pointing out that Milton's contract handcuffed payflex for 3 years.
    Your sucking me in but its a heck of a lot easier to build a lineup than it is to build a rotation. Wayne built a pretty damn good rotation. Now the onus is on Jocketty to build a lineup to help that rotation out.

  9. #68
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    Re: The second-guessing game

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    I don't think any of Wayne's teams finished above .500. I'm not sure this team will, but if it does, that's a nice accomplishment . IIRC, Wayne's W-L record got worse every year he was here. Even if we can't reach .500, if the W-L record improves despite losing Dunn/Jr and despite having relatively little money to spend this offseason.. that's a step forward at least.
    We have been through this 1000 times. Wayne Krivsky inherited an absolute mess and was able to build a strong rotation in just a few years. He acquired Bronson Arroyo and Edinson Volquez. He locked up Aaron Harang. Johnny Cueto developed under his watch. He had this organization moving in the right direction. That's all I'm saying. I don't feel like having this same argument yet again.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  10. #69
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: The second-guessing game

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    Wasn't trying to upset anyone. Just saying that Wayne commited a lot of money to the future. That directly impacted the amount of money Walt had to spend last offseason. In other words, it's not 100% Cast's fault for not spending the money.

    It's no different than pointing out that Milton's contract handcuffed payflex for 3 years.
    Sorry I disagree with that. 1st off who is to say that Wayne was behind those signings? I'd just about lay money that Cordero, Gonzo, Freel etc. were mostly all Castellini's ideas. I say that knowing that Wayne is one of the few I have seen who actually knows talent when he sees it and has been in an organization that did things cheaply. I just cannot see those as his acquisitions. 2nd only Cordero's salary should be viewed as an amount that is subtantial enough to handcuff any team. I mean what are we playing here major league baseball or bad minton? 3rd Gonzo was a must have at the time IMO and I would do that deal over again if it weren't for the unforseeable injuries to come. 5 Million for a SS who plays above avg. defense and has some power for this team? Hell I'd take that SS right now and pay him more than 5 million, wouldn't you? Ya sure can't trade for one these days.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

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  11. #70
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    Re: The second-guessing game

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    Nope, he does not get a free pass. I gave him a C- this offseason when we were asked. Most of the board seemed to give him a C or a D. How is that a free pass?

    Right now, the team seems to be performing above expectations. Walt should be praised for that (at least while it lasts).

    I don't think any of Wayne's teams finished above .500. I'm not sure this team will, but if it does, that's a nice accomplishment . IIRC, Wayne's W-L record got worse every year he was here. Even if we can't reach .500, if the W-L record improves despite losing Dunn/Jr and despite having relatively little money to spend this offseason.. that's a step forward at least.
    And it will likely be due to Wayne's acquisitions not Walts if we do better than .500.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

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  12. #71
    High five! nate's Avatar
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    Re: The second-guessing game

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    Hey, it's the truth. I can criticize Cast and Walt too.
    It's more opinion than truth.

    Without Gonzo on the payroll, it becomes a lot easier to make some moves.
    And without Eric Milton on the payroll, it might've been easier for Wayne to go out and get a _________. Without KG Jr., he might've _________.

    No GM starts from a clean slate.

    Unloading Freel was a minor miracle, but we got stuck with an overpaid catcher.. Not bad, since Freel was a sunk cost, and Hernandez was only a small increment more, but not an optimal situation.

    I'd rather have a legitimate cleanup hitter than Cordero.
    Wasn't there a rumor of a deal to send Cordero to the Yanks for Xavier Nady?

    I never understand why DanO and Bowden are fair game to criticize, yet Wayne is supposed to be immune.
    I don't see any mention of DanO or Bowden here.

    Wayne has proven that you can make the team substantially worse, despite upgrading the starting rotation.
    I don't think any such thing has been "proven."
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

  13. #72
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: The second-guessing game

    Leave the lineup discussion for the game thread, folks.
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  14. #73
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    Re: The second-guessing game

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    Leave the lineup discussion for the game thread, folks.
    Oops. Sorry about that.

  15. #74
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    Re: The second-guessing game

    Quote Originally Posted by Homer Bailey View Post
    If tonight isn't proof that Dusty doesn't know how to fill out a lineup card, I don't know what is.

    Hitting JHJ 2nd vs a righty, playing him at a position that he is terrible at, when we have a better defensive and offensive (right now) option in Janish.

    Still playing Dickerson over Nix despite the title of a Hal McCoy article. Tonight's lineup is one of the worst I've ever seen from Dusty, and that is saying something.

    The 8 and 4 hitters should be switched. What other manager fills out a lineup card where anyone can say that sentence?
    Dusty was going to play JHJ at 3b tonight, with Gonzalez's injury, he just moved him to SS. Otherwise it's him and Janish in the lineup, which I am sure everyone would have complained about.

    I hate JHJ at SS, and hope it's a one game thing, but I can't blame Dusty for putting him in there for tonight. We'll see if he stays, and then I'll complain.

    As for the 8 and 4 hitters, what other manager do you know that has such a lousy group of starting hitters to put in his lineup? I don't like Dusty's lineups any more than you do, but with the hitters he's been given, he's not doing as bad a job as it seems.

    And from a statistical point of view, according to Baseball Musings, the difference between the best batting order and the 30th best is 3 runs for the entire season. Basically, lineups just don't matter that much over the course of the season.

    I know how frustrating it is to see bad lineups day after day, but to paraphrase Rob Neyer, "Bad lineups don't hurt your team's chances of winning, they hurt your fan's feelings."
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  16. #75
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    Re: The second-guessing game

    Dusty was going to play JHJ at 3b tonight, with Gonzalez's injury, he just moved him to SS. Otherwise it's him and Janish in the lineup, which I am sure everyone would have complained about.

    I hate JHJ at SS, and hope it's a one game thing, but I can't blame Dusty for putting him in there for tonight. We'll see if he stays, and then I'll complain.
    Janish and Rosales would be the best combo, offensively and defensively IMO.


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