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Thread: 2009 Postgame Updates

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    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    2009 Postgame Updates

    This might be better served here than in the Misc. Updates thread. Nevertheless, here goes from the May 4th game at Florida ...

    “That one was the toughest one so far,” said manager Dusty Baker. “In my managerial career (San Francisco, Chicago Cubs, Cincinnati) I’ve had more late losses here than anywhere.”
    I hate to say it, Dusty, but you dug your own hole with several moves or non-moves last night that really put the Reds in a bad situation. Here's the tally:


    Top of the 8th inning


    Willy Taveras singles with one out during a 2-2 ballgame. The Reds signed Taveras to give them a speed and stolen base threat at the top of the order, and this is the precise situation where that threat needs to help the Reds win ballgames. Chris Dickerson sees four total pitches, and Taveras roams no further than a few steps off first base. Taveras absolutely should have been running, and whether or not it was Taveras' decision or Baker's, it was a crucial lost opportunity.

    Of course, Dickerson singles and Taveras moves up to second base. Rather than attempt to swipe third to give the Reds a runner on third and on out, Taveras sits still at second base. Joey Votto hits a medium deep fly ball that would have easily scored Taveras from third base had he figured out a way to get there.

    That's lost opportunity number one right there as the Reds ultimately do not score.


    Bottom of the 9th inning


    Dusty Baker uses his spot starter and long man, Nick Masset, to record only one out. With the pitcher's spot due to leadoff the top of the 10th, that leaves Baker no choice but to pinch hit for Masset in the 10th. Masset gets the job done and gets the game to extra innings, but now Baker left himself managing an extra inning game without his long reliever.

    Oops.


    Top of the 11th inning


    After a Jay Bruce walk, the Reds have Brandon Phillips on second base and Bruce on first base with only one out. Renyel Pinto starts using a high leg-kick motion on the mound, a leg-kick so high that Phillips could have gotten a massive jump and swiped third base easily if he chose to do so. Instead Phillips goes nowhere, and Ramon Hernandez lifts a deep fly ball to left field. Had Phillips made his way over to third base, he scores easily on that fly ball.

    That's lost opportunity number two right there as the Reds ultimately do not score.


    Top of the 12th inning


    After a Paul Janish leadoff single, Baker sends up Darnell McDonald to attempt a sacrifice bunt to move Janish to second base. At this point, McDonald is the second last position player to enter the game for the Reds with only Ryan Hanigan remaining on the bench. If McDonald's only instruction was to bunt, then Baker could have sent up either Bronson Arroyo or Johnny Cueto to do just that. Instead, he burns a position player and McDonald ultimately grounds into a double play.


    And finally, the best is saved for last ...

    The Marlins batted in no less than 8 different innings during which the game was tied 2-2 (7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th and 14th), with five of those frames coming in extra innings.

    Francisco Cordero, the Reds' best reliever, does not make an appearance at all during the game. It is simply absurd how much Dusty Baker is tied to the save rule that he is unable to use Cordero in some of the highest leverage situations the Reds will see all season. The fact that the Reds played a 14-inning game that was tied 2-2 for 8 innings and Cordero doesn't make an appearance is beyond ridiculous.

    Not only that, but Baker's plan was to bring in Micah Owings after Herrera rather than Cordero if the game went beyond 14 innings. That sure would have been a brilliant plan to still keep your team's best reliever sitting in the bullpen while trotting out a starting pitcher who threw 102 pitches two days ago.

    The Reds flat deserved to lose last night's game. The Marlins didn't win it; the Reds simply lost it. And considering Baker was going to trot out Owings in a situation that risks injury, it's probably for the better that they went ahead and blew the game in the 14th inning.
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    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: 2009 Postgame Updates

    The Reds flat deserved to lose last night's game. The Marlins didn't win it; the Reds simply lost it.
    Baseball is a game of attrition, it's hard to pin an extra inning loss on one or even two events, but it eventually is a wait for a mistake to occur or for your talent to wane beneath the other teams. I'm sure we can look at The Marlins decisions and compile a list as well. But the fact is they won on a failed DP.

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    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: 2009 Postgame Updates

    Mantra for the 2009 season: BLAME DUSTY

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    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: 2009 Postgame Updates

    I would be curious to hear why our runners weren't trying to steal some bases. Someone asked whether Taveras has a green light all of the time. It was mentioned, correctly I think, that if you're going to rely on the small ball model, you need to make things happen. I saw no mention in Fay's story this morning (no surprise there) indicating that Baker was even asked about this. I agree that we had opportunities to win last night's game and we didn't take them. I'd like to hear why. It's just one game, but we can ill afford to not seize chances to win games like that.
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    Re: 2009 Postgame Updates

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Mantra for the 2009 season: BLAME DUSTY
    Cyclone didn't pin all the blame on Dusty Baker.

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    Re: 2009 Postgame Updates

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Mantra for the 2009 season: BLAME DUSTY
    Mantra for 2009: whine about people asking questions about the Reds' performance.

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    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: 2009 Postgame Updates

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz View Post
    I would be curious to hear why our runners weren't trying to steal some bases. Someone asked whether Taveras has a green light all of the time. It was mentioned, correctly I think, that if you're going to rely on the small ball model, you need to make things happen. I saw no mention in Fay's story this morning (no surprise there) indicating that Baker was even asked about this. I agree that we had opportunities to win last night's game and we didn't take them. I'd like to hear why. It's just one game, but we can ill afford to not seize chances to win games like that.
    Common misconception of Dusty's approach is that the team steals more, not true. Dusty team's tend to have more plays on then other teams, that includes moving with the pitch, hit and runs, sacrifices and hitting the ball to the other side. All these are beyond sit and wait baseball which the Reds played for most of the decade, a steal is still a potential out and holding onto those outs is what we want the Reds to do and only steal if they feel if it's a high leverage move.

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    Re: 2009 Postgame Updates

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792 View Post

    Not only that, but Baker's plan was to bring in Micah Owings after Herrera rather than Cordero if the game went beyond 14 innings. That sure would have been a brilliant plan to still keep your team's best reliever sitting in the bullpen while trotting out a starting pitcher who threw 102 pitches two days ago.

    The Reds flat deserved to lose last night's game. The Marlins didn't win it; the Reds simply lost it. And considering Baker was going to trot out Owings in a situation that risks injury, it's probably for the better that they went ahead and blew the game in the 14th inning.
    I didn't make it all the way through the game last night, did he have Owings warming up? From the looks of the box score the pitching was really good once again from the Reds. Now if Baker was thinking about bringing in Owings I agree that is pretty idiotic, especially after the whole Harang ordeal last season, but if your offense only gets two runs in 14 innings I think those guys have to bear the brunt of most of the blame.

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    Re: 2009 Postgame Updates

    Quote Originally Posted by summerplight View Post
    I didn't make it all the way through the game last night, did he have Owings warming up? From the looks of the box score the pitching was really good once again from the Reds. Now if Baker was thinking about bringing in Owings I agree that is pretty idiotic, especially after the whole Harang ordeal last season, but if your offense only gets two runs in 14 innings I think those guys have to bear the brunt of most of the blame.
    I don't know if he was warming up but Dusty was quoted as saying Micah was going to pitch after Herrera.

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    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: 2009 Postgame Updates

    Quote Originally Posted by summerplight View Post
    I didn't make it all the way through the game last night, did he have Owings warming up? From the looks of the box score the pitching was really good once again from the Reds. Now if Baker was thinking about bringing in Owings I agree that is pretty idiotic, especially after the whole Harang ordeal last season, but if your offense only gets two runs in 14 innings I think those guys have to bear the brunt of most of the blame.
    Baker told Fay that Owings was next in line after Herrera.

    Francisco Cordero warmed up five different times in last night's game, but he didn't get in. And still Baker was going to use Owings over Cordero if Herrera would have put up a zero.

    The Reds had opportunities in the 8th inning and 11th inning to force the issue in an attempt to push across a scratch run, and they didn't do it either time.

    The 8th inning with Taveras on the bases is the big head scratcher. Impact base stealers, the type that are game-changers, can steal a bag in that situation with extremely high success rates to raise the leverage stakes and give the offense a chance. Barry Larkin in his prime during the early to mid 90s was just that guy. Meanwhile, Taveras thus far in 2009 isn't that guy.
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    Re: 2009 Postgame Updates

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792 View Post
    Francisco Cordero warmed up five different times in last night's game, but he didn't get in. And still Baker was going to use Owings over Cordero if Herrera would have put up a zero.

    I know some managers won't pitch a guy if he's warmed up at least twice and still hasn't got into the game.
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    Kmac5 KoryMac5's Avatar
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    Re: 2009 Postgame Updates

    I asked the question last night and I will state again I don't think Willy T has the green light. Dusty sticks to his old school rules that say you don't run yourself out of an inning with your best hitter coming up. I haven't had many complaints about Dusty this year, but not having Willy T on 3rd base with Votto up cost us this game tonight.
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    Re: 2009 Postgame Updates

    They've won more one run games this season than they've lost. FWIW.

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    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: 2009 Postgame Updates

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    I know some managers won't pitch a guy if he's warmed up at least twice and still hasn't got into the game.
    That may or may not be the case with Baker, but if so, then he essentially wasted his bullets in the bullpen rather than the game.

    I'm not sure when Cordero first got warmed up in the pen, but we know it was likely when the game was tied at 2 at some point either in the 9th inning or early in extra innings such as the 10th or 11th. If that's when Cordero was warmed up, then that's when he should have been used since that's about as high leverage as it gets.
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    Re: 2009 Postgame Updates

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    They've won more one run games this season than they've lost. FWIW.
    Thats for the perspective, FCB. Seasons are long affairs and you'll see these sort of games throughout any given season even in championship years. Sure you want to win a game like this, but sometimes you lose them. Tomorrow's a new day.
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