Willy Taveras - 2009 to date

[TRF]

No, it's not revisionist. I was for the signing. When we picked him up I thought we'd get more OF'ers.

If you want to say that's revisionist history...fine, prove me wrong.

I'm not trying to convert anyone or anything like that. Just stating what I've seen, and to me it looks like he's focusing on OBP. Will he end up turning around his career? Probably not, but it's certainly a turn in the right direction wouldn't you think?

As for the leading off...I don't know of ANYBODY (other than apparently Dusty & Walt) who thinks Taveras leading off is a good idea.

I went and took a look. This quote came not long after he said he could steal 100 bases if he OB's high enough. Most of your posts center around two themes:

1. A non-exsistent competition for the CF spot. You made that up to somehow support your claim that WT was brought in for "depth".
2. The Reds were filling a hole in CF, one that didn't exist due to the fact that both Dickerson and Bruce were on the roster.
3. You expected a major bat LF to be signed, didn't happen. Wasn't going to after WT was signed. Once he was, Dickerson + whoever Gomes/Nix/McD was the LF

You completely bought into what the Reds were selling, which was one red herring after another. "LF is the priority". Until it wasn't. And LF was only a "priority" because they did nothing to fill the real hole at SS.

You've had more than a few posts praising his defense. He's a poor defender. He really is, but he's gifted with remarkable speed. Make a mistake in a small park, and you can compensate. Break wrong in Colorado, and you are screwed.

Hey, I love that you are so much a fan that you see plusses with every player, but Taveras is dreck, and it's time to come join the rest of us. Oh, we'll all root for him when he plays. No real fan roots against a player on "His/Her" team. But the best thing he could do for the Reds is get DFA'd.

[BRM]

Hey, I love that you are so much a fan that you see plusses with every player, but Taveras is dreck, and it's time to come join the rest of us. Oh, we'll all root for him when he plays. No real fan roots against a player on "His/Her" team. But the best thing he could do for the Reds is get DFA'd.

Dude, what do you care? You're a Cubs fan.

[_Sir_Charles_]

I went and took a look. This quote came not long after he said he could steal 100 bases if he OB's high enough. Most of your posts center around two themes:

1. A non-exsistent competition for the CF spot. You made that up to somehow support your claim that WT was brought in for "depth".
2. The Reds were filling a hole in CF, one that didn't exist due to the fact that both Dickerson and Bruce were on the roster.
3. You expected a major bat LF to be signed, didn't happen. Wasn't going to after WT was signed. Once he was, Dickerson + whoever Gomes/Nix/McD was the LF

I didn't "make it up". I simply believed at the time (as did many others) that Walt would still be bringing in another outfielder. If that happened (as it SHOULD have) then it would've allowed Chris to be played in a CF platoon or be in a solid competition for the job. Did it happen? No. Because they never brought in that LF'er. Was I wrong? Sure. But based on the facts AT THAT TIME...I didn't feel that I was going to be. So sue me.

And if you recall, that quote was during ST. And Taveras had a ton of walks in the WBC AND during ST. He stated that he was focusing on that more and his results in ST and at the start of the season was confirmation of it for me. You disagree?

In regards to #2, people still aren't seeing what I was saying apparently. The CF hole WASN'T filled already. Sure, we had Dickerson. But the Reds almost never played him in center last year when he was with the Reds. For some reason, they saw him as a left fielder. Thus...a hole in center. If they then signed a LF'er, that puts Dickerson in the mix for TWO slots and gives Taveras some competition for the CF job. Did it happen? No. But given the limited info we had at that time, my scenerio was just as likely as any other.

You completely bought into what the Reds were selling, which was one red herring after another. "LF is the priority". Until it wasn't. And LF was only a "priority" because they did nothing to fill the real hole at SS.

You say that like I'm the only one who DID believe that they were going to bring in a LF'er. Walt couldn't have forseen the market change and the budget change. But that was all after the fact. And it doesn't change my opinion of Taveras one bit. It only changes his place on the team due to the players surrounding him.

You've had more than a few posts praising his defense. He's a poor defender. He really is, but he's gifted with remarkable speed. Make a mistake in a small park, and you can compensate. Break wrong in Colorado, and you are screwed.

Agree to disagree. I've seen numerous excellent plays from him in the past and this season. I've seen a few piss-poor reads but he's recovered on them. Is he a great defender? No. Never said he was. But I think he's above average in my book.

Hey, I love that you are so much a fan that you see plusses with every player, but Taveras is dreck, and it's time to come join the rest of us. Oh, we'll all root for him when he plays. No real fan roots against a player on "His/Her" team. But the best thing he could do for the Reds is get DFA'd.

No, it's NOT time to "come join the rest of us". I have my own opinions and my own viewpoints. Just because I don't follow the herd doesn't make me wrong. I find that suggestion kind of offensive. And the "Taveras is dreck" comment...is YOUR opinion. Not fact.

[Ltlabner]

I'm not waiting for his mistakes so I can pounce and "be right" to prove a point. I fairly certain Willy T will fail all by himself so I'm not really monitoring him minute by minute.

Do I hope someone waves a magic wand and gives him skills that result in a real baseball player? Of course, because I want the Reds to succeed. Nobody here is rooting for the Reds to fail except maybe BRM (he's loony).

[TRF]

Dude, what do you care? You're a Cubs fan.

Nationals. Couldn't pull the trigger on being a cubs fan. Plus my Cubs cap is unlucky when I play softball.

[BRM]

Nationals. Couldn't pull the trigger on being a cubs fan. Plus my Cubs cap is unlucky when I play softball.

I would think wearing a Cubs hat would be unlucky no matter what you are doing. It's no wonder you K'ed twice if you were wearing it at the time.

[Chip R]

Dude, what do you care? You're a Cubs fan.

I think that's a personal attack.

[RichRed]

Oh great, now Cubs fans are going to start whining about the Curse of TRF.

[Chip R]

Oh great, now Cubs fans are going to start whining about the Curse of TRF.

Does that make TRF a goat?

[SMcGavin]

I'm a Dickerson fan and would love to see him man CF vs RHP, but he really stinks against lefties. The Reds need to find him a platoon partner.

[remdog]

I'm a Dickerson fan and would love to see him man CF vs RHP, but he really stinks against lefties. The Reds need to find him a platoon partner.

The Reds already have a platoon partner for C. Dickerson. His name is W. Tavaras. The only problem is that he isn't very good.

Rem

[Ltlabner]

To get back on track....here's where Willy is as of 5 minutes ago:

NAME	         PA	 EqA	 OBP	 SLG	OUTR	   VORP	   RAR	   RAP	
Willy Taveras	201	.242	.318	.328	0.65174	   -0.2	   2.4	  -5.6

No real seismic shifts since the OP but he's starting to come back to earth. OBP has fallen from .330 since the first post. Out rate is up a tick. He's still clocking in at replacement level in terms of VORP and RAR. In other words, he's still treading water in the "not helping you, but at least not hurting you" pool.....for now.

When we go to the more traditional lines an interesting picture develops:

Type              BA     OBP     SLG 
Total 		.260	.318	.328
vs Left 	.205	.273	.328
vs Right 	.275	.331	.355
May 		.269	.307	.333

Willy should never face a lefty again. Period. In May his overall OBP plummeted from .351 in April to .307. Call it regression. Call it signs of an injury. Call it a change in approach. Call it the league getting the book on him. Either way it ain't good and doesn't bode well for the future.

With regards to his havoc on the base-paths:

SB	CS	PICKOFF	   SB%
12	2	2	  85.7%

His stolen base percentage hasn't changed a lick which is good. Unfortunately, he's on pace for the mid 30ish total steals. Hopefully that puts an end to this 100 stolen base nonsense, or even the 60 stolen base mark. 30 or so stolen bases is his carer norm and is a more likely expectation (although hammy issues may make that level difficult too).
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To sum up, he's not going to be the .280BA, .350OBP, 60 Stolen Base guy some were hoping for unless May was the result of a fundamental change in his approach/swing and he gets back to it ASAP.

He's trending back towards what many of us felt he would be: a low OBP guy with limited value, a weak stick and mediocre defense who gets too many at bats.

While the picture is still murky, it's getting clearer (and it isn't pretty). But to cut the guy *some* slack he's fought off flu issues and is now dealing with problems with his legs. By the end of June we'll know where this story ends. I'm pretty sure I know the ending, but as they always say: you have to play the games.

[TRF]

Does that make TRF a goat?

Only when i bend over in a towel.

[BRM]

Only when i bend over in a towel.

I just lost my appetite...

[Razor Shines]

No, it's not revisionist. I was for the signing. When we picked him up I thought we'd get more OF'ers. I forsaw an open competition in ST with Dickerson & Taveras and whoever else they got (possibly even Stubbs). Once it became clear that we weren't getting anybody else, I simply rooted for the guy. Somewhere along the line people started assuming that I was a big Willy Taveras supporter simply because I was one of the few that WASN'T ragging on the guy (not being a hater is NOT the same thing as being a fan). I'll be the first to admit that during spring training I'm always highly optimistic. Heck, I'm still that way. I still think he can be an asset to the team and can produce numbers that merge those 2 seasons. I firmly believe he can hit close to .300 and he's shown this year that he CAN take a walk. The power will never be there of course, but he does have the tools to be successful.

OBM has been slamming me via PM's lately whenever Taveras struggles like I'm the guy's agent or something. He's on the Reds...I'm gonna pull for him and hope for the best from him. Once he's on another team...I'll be begging for him to pop up every pitch or strikeout every time. But if somebody's waiting for me to change my tune and start enjoying it when he struggles because that's what the formula's predict him to do just ain't happening.

I'm still waiting for OBM to produce some proof that I rubbed it in peoples' faces when Taveras was doing well (as he's accused me of doing twice now).

Agreed. But as everyone on RZ knows, he'll destroy this team. *grin*

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showt...14#post1855214