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Thread: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

  1. #16
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    Quote Originally Posted by acredsfan View Post
    I'm all for giving more playing time to Dickerson, but let's not be too quick to trade Willy Taveras. Yeah, he may not be an outstanding player, but I'm not willing to place all of my trust in the rookie just yet. People can argue all they want about how Willy isn't as good of a hitter, but Dickerson hasn't proven crap yet. He's had one decent month at the plate this year, but his average is still under .250. He went through a spell where he swung at everything, but his OBP is a decent .375. Still, way too soon to declare him the answer in CF for the season. Knee jerk reactions are a terrible way to run a franchise. Let's remember that many people were calling for Dickerson to sit when Nix was showing promise in LF.

    I'm in no way implying that Willy will be the answer in CF, but at the very least he's got the experience to take the job back over if Dickerson would faulter. CF is one of the areas that Walt should look to upgrade, but honestly it's rare to find a CFer who can play offense and defense.

    So you would rather stick with a player like Taveras, who has proven to be unproductive rather than take a chance on Dickerson... because you think that he might suck too?


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  3. #17
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    First, I was upset when the Reds signed Taveras. Never understood the signing, with Dickerson already on the team.

    I hope that Dusty will start Dickerson in CF for the rest of the season.

    But I will make this absurd prediction. If Taveras does start the rest of the season (or at least platoons ) he will finish the season with an OBP of around .350.
    He just needs to bunt more and hit the ball on the ground more, and he will get on base. He is well below his career averages for GB/FB, BUH, and IFH.

    I have faith that Jocketty, Jacoby and Baker will make sure he does that correct those, or make sure that he does not start.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  4. #18
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post

    But I will make this absurd prediction. If Taveras does start the rest of the season (or at least platoons ) he will finish the season with an OBP of around .350.
    I hope you are right but I don't think so. (I'd acually bet against it)

    Willie Taveras is Willie Taveras.

  5. #19
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Madden View Post
    I hope you are right but I don't think so. (I'd acually bet against it)

    Willie Taveras is Willie Taveras.

    Well, it you think that, then you should think that he will finish with an OBP of .329, which means that he will OBP around .360 the rest of the way. Which is basically my point.

    Right now, due to an 0-19 slump (Pujols just had an 0-16 slump) he is off of his career numbers. I think if he gets enough playing time, they will come back to his norm.

    However, even if he did do that, I would still want Dickerson over him.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  6. #20
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    Well, it you think that, then you should think that he will finish with an OBP of .329, which means that he will OBP around .360 the rest of the way. Which is basically my point.

    Right now, due to an 0-19 slump (Pujols just had an 0-16 slump) he is off of his career numbers. I think if he gets enough playing time, they will come back to his norm.

    However, even if he did do that, I would still want Dickerson over him.

    Like I said, I hope you are right.

    No offense (pardon the pun) but I'd bet Taveras ends up with an OBP of less than .350 for the 2009 season.


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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    Quote Originally Posted by wheels View Post
    For the most part, you've been spot on about everything this season.

    This analysis, however, I cannot agree with.

    In fact, I don't know if I've ever disagreed with you more about anything. I mean that with the upmost respect.

    I'm actually a little shocked.

    Seriously. Your best argument FOR Willy Taveras is that others haven't hit?

    Holy cow.

    You can do WAYYYY better than that.

    That might say all that needs to be said about one Corey Taveras.
    I'm not arguing for WT. I'm just saying that the knocks on him are obvious and are just repeated on here, time and again in thread after thread. I'm also saying that if his offensive woes continue, I'm confident the Reds will bench him.

    At least he's played good defense -- and that point I will argue if others disagree. Every defensive measure I've seen shows that he has been good defensively this year.

    I'm also saying that the team's offensive woes go way beyond Willy Taveras.

    How about some threads criticizing the others with low OBPs or miniscule slugging percentages. Just to break things up a little.
    Last edited by Kc61; 06-11-2009 at 08:35 AM.

  8. #22
    Member cumberlandreds's Avatar
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    This is easy. Its Dickerson. Taveras is just not a smart player. Just look at his AB on Tuesday night after Ceuto walks on 4 pitches. Instead of actually making a pitcher throw a strike he immediatley swings at two pitches that are clearly out of the strike zone. To me that shows a very low baseball IQ. Dickerson is no great player either but is clearly a better choice at the moment.
    Reds Fan Since 1971

  9. #23
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    Gotta be Dickerson at this point -- he's shown he can defend in CF, and his plate approach is much better than WT's. It remains to be seen whether Baker can actually bring himself to bench Taveras.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  10. #24
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    I would rather have Gary Redus and Eddie Mllner ...right now over WT and JHJ.

    Janish over AG.

    I would sit Bruce against more LH....not all but just some, at least.

  11. #25
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    From Lance's blog:

    Forget leadoff, I would ask you if Taveras should even be the CF? I know Dusty gets irriated by talk of playing the "hot hand". I can only point out the facts. This team struggles to get runnners on base.
    If you can't get on, you can't get over and you can't get in.
    Willy Taveras: BA .243, OBP .300, OPS .606
    Chris Dickerson: BA .244, OBP .373, OPS .734
    Taveras is hitless in his last 20 ab's and 1 for his last 25
    Dickerson is hitting .308 in his last 12 starts
    And consider this from emailer Jeff:
    Wily Taveras had 14 game hitting streak between 4/29-5/13.
    Taveras during 14 games streak: 24-59 .407 avg Reds go 10-4
    Taveras in other 44 games: 22-130 .169 avg Reds are 21-23
    Maybe it's simply the hamstring still bothering Taveras...fine.
    Play Dickerson til he shows you he should sit. He showed the glove over the weekend. He's a much better CF than LF. Wayne Krivsky always said that. If he has the glove and he's getting on-base. And your "team" is about pitching, speed and defense, what's the downside to playing Dickerson for now?

    http://www.1530homer.com/pages/lancesBlog.html
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  12. #26
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    From Lance's blog:

    Forget leadoff, I would ask you if Taveras should even be the CF? I know Dusty gets irriated by talk of playing the "hot hand". I can only point out the facts. This team struggles to get runnners on base.
    If you can't get on, you can't get over and you can't get in.
    Willy Taveras: BA .243, OBP .300, OPS .606
    Chris Dickerson: BA .244, OBP .373, OPS .734
    Taveras is hitless in his last 20 ab's and 1 for his last 25
    Dickerson is hitting .308 in his last 12 starts
    And consider this from emailer Jeff:
    Wily Taveras had 14 game hitting streak between 4/29-5/13.
    Taveras during 14 games streak: 24-59 .407 avg Reds go 10-4
    Taveras in other 44 games: 22-130 .169 avg Reds are 21-23
    Maybe it's simply the hamstring still bothering Taveras...fine.
    Play Dickerson til he shows you he should sit. He showed the glove over the weekend. He's a much better CF than LF. Wayne Krivsky always said that. If he has the glove and he's getting on-base. And your "team" is about pitching, speed and defense, what's the downside to playing Dickerson for now?

    http://www.1530homer.com/pages/lancesBlog.html
    Hard to disagree with this. That dive play Taveras made last night that turned into a triple made me wince.

  13. #27
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    Quote Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1 View Post
    Hard to disagree with this. That dive play Taveras made last night that turned into a triple made me wince.
    IMO it was a double that Taveras played into a triple. I don't think the cuts the ball off before the wall regardless.

  14. #28
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    IMO it was a double that Taveras played into a triple. I don't think the cuts the ball off before the wall regardless.
    He got a poor jump on the ball to begin with. It could've been a double, but either way...you can't allow that to happen in a close game, especially with 1 out. Willy is very lucky Harang was able to get out of that unscathed. You never want to see a guy at 3rd base (and with less than 2 outs no less).

  15. #29
    Will post for food BuckeyeRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    Dickerson is far better (and younger and cheaper), with a much higher ceiling than Taveras in everything (but stealing bases).

    Heisey and Stubbs, down on the farm, are BOTH arguably better than Taveras.

    Stubbs and Dickerson should platoon NOW. Stubbs is ready and Heisey needs challenged in Louisville.

    There simply is no reason that Willy Taveras should occupy a roster spot with this team.

    Sad thing is, that this is just common sense type stuff that many of us have been saying for months, even when they were just flirting with the idea of signing Willy.

    You know, common sense type stuff like Gomes over McDonald. Wow. Rocket science.

  16. #30
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    Quote Originally Posted by acredsfan View Post
    I'm in no way implying that Willy will be the answer in CF, but at the very least he's got the experience to take the job back over if Dickerson would faulter.
    This argument just boils down to time but has nothing to do with talent. A smart management team should make decision based on talent instead of time.

    Everyone understands that Taveras has more time in the majors than Dickerson. Yet, the only thing Taveras has done with that time is demonstrate that he's not very good. Dickerson hasn't had as much time in the majors, but so far he's demonstrated that he's a better player than Taveras. That said, he's also shown the same when you compare their minor league numbers.
    How do we know he's not Mel Torme?


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