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Thread: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

  1. #106
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    So I guess Jay Bruce is a scrappy veteran. His OBP is .299 and his BA is .212yet Dusty has given him more plate appearances than anyone on the team.
    At least Bruce is playing plus defense, and despite his struggles, his OPS+ is 96, which is slightly below average. There's no doubt that he's struggling badly too, but at least he's still close to a league average hitter when he struggles.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

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  3. #107
    Bread Gloves Razor Shines's Avatar
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    Who would have thought that Ltlabner's sig line would be too optimistic?

  4. #108
    High five! nate's Avatar
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    So I guess Jay Bruce is a scrappy veteran. His OBP is .299 and his BA is .212yet Dusty has given him more plate appearances than anyone on the team.
    He's also 22 and developing.

    Willy is 27 and developed.
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

  5. #109
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    So I guess Jay Bruce is a scrappy veteran. His OBP is .299 and his BA is .212yet Dusty has given him more plate appearances than anyone on the team.
    Bruce .461 slugging percentage compared to Taveras .289 should provde a clue to the diffierence. If Taveras could slug .450+ he'd be viewed entirely differently. Fact is, his lack of slugging just means his OBP needs to be that much higher for him to be a positive contributor. Bruce can OBP in the .330 range (and he clearly needs to improve) and be a solid producer (kind of like Phillips but better) while its still completely inadequate in Willy's case.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  6. #110
    I'm gettin paper Homer Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    Quote Originally Posted by nate View Post
    He's also 22 and developing.

    Willy is 27 and terrible.
    Fixed.

  7. #111
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    Runs Created

    Willy T: 18.5, PA-227
    CDick: 17.4, PA-147
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  8. #112
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    At least Bruce is playing plus defense, and despite his struggles, his OPS+ is 96, which is slightly below average. There's no doubt that he's struggling badly too, but at least he's still close to a league average hitter when he struggles.
    OPS or OPS+ is flawed in that it combines two different abilities. You may interpret the numbers as showing that Bruce is "slightly below average." My view is that he is above average in the power department but a .299 OBP and a .212 BA are well below average, to the point where it raises a question whether Bruce should be at AAA right now.

    Yet Baker sticks with him. And it is arguable that keeping Bruce at the major league level not only holds back the Reds' offense but hurts the player, who is 22 and has some things to work out.

    The approach of keeping him in the majors is reasonable, but I do believe other organizations would send him down. When Encarnacion had these kinds of stretches, the Reds sent him down. But Bruce represents hope to this franchise and they obviously view it as important in their relationship with fans to keep Bruce on the Reds.

    At the end of the day, it's tough to succeed in MLB and all the prospect hype in the world, all the RedsZone adoration, all the minor league awards won't help this guy if he doesn't learn to hit offspeed pitches and lay off pitches out of the zone.

  9. #113
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    OPS or OPS+ is flawed in that it combines two different abilities. .
    here we go! Haven't had a good OPS disussion in awhile.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  10. #114
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    here we go! Haven't had a good OPS disussion in awhile.
    It's not a debate about OPS, which is a useful shortcut stat. But when a player has a good SLG and a weaker OBP there are two ways to look at it. You can add them up, look at his OPS, and end the conversation. Or, you can recognize that the hitter has a strength and a weakness and take it from there.

  11. #115
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    Based upon wOBA, Bruce has been essentially a major league average bat thus far (his wOBA=.328).
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  12. #116
    High five! nate's Avatar
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    It's not a debate about OPS, which is a useful shortcut stat. But when a player has a good SLG and a weaker OBP there are two ways to look at it. You can add them up, look at his OPS, and end the conversation. Or, you can recognize that the hitter has a strength and a weakness and take it from there.
    I think you expect OPS to measure something it doesn't.

    It's pretty rare for a guy to have a good SLG (say, >.450) and a weak OBP (like < .315). I guess there is the odd Matt Williams or Hank Blalock, but it's not real common.
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

  13. #117
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    It's not a debate about OPS, which is a useful shortcut stat. But when a player has a good SLG and a weaker OBP there are two ways to look at it. You can add them up, look at his OPS, and end the conversation. Or, you can recognize that the hitter has a strength and a weakness and take it from there.
    But wasn't OBM's point that Bruce's strengths and weaknesses have added up to something like a league average hitter?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  14. #118
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    Quote Originally Posted by nate View Post
    He's also 22 and developing.

    Willy is 27 and developed.
    It's not a comparison between them. I was responding to the remark suggesting that Dusty sticks with so called crafty veterans. My point is that the Reds are also sticking with the young Bruce, who also has slumped, and is not a crafty veteran.

    My take on Taveras is that he is a useful player when his legs are in top shape. His contributions are based on speed. I've seen that speed as an effective weapon for the Reds and, in previous years, for other teams.

    I don't think Taveras' speed has been there for some time now due to injury. He's not the same player and I don't know why the Reds haven't just DL'd him and let him get to full strength. They have plenty of backups who can play centerfield.

    The trashing by some of Taveras' defense, the complete focus on this player to the exclusion of other slumping Reds is, IMO, just typical fan overkill. Taveras was a starting centerfielder for two World Series teams so his weaknesses usually aren't the route of all evil. Teams can and do succeed with him - when healthy and running well.
    Last edited by Kc61; 06-14-2009 at 12:11 PM.

  15. #119
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    Quote Originally Posted by nate View Post
    I think you expect OPS to measure something it doesn't.

    It's pretty rare for a guy to have a good SLG (say, >.450) and a weak OBP (like < .315). I guess there is the odd Matt Williams or Hank Blalock, but it's not real common.
    Bruce has a .461 SLG and a .299 OBP.

    If you want to add them up and say he is a .760 guy, league average, that's fine -- so be it.

    I choose to view him as a hitter with obviously excellent power, 15 home runs, but whose inability to get on base must improve for him to achieve his potential. I remember a day when a .212 BA hitter would almost never be starting in the major leagues.

    Depends on how you view it. To me, the total OPS number doesn't tell the story in Bruce's particular case.

  16. #120
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Willy Taveras or Chris Dickerson in CF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Taveras was a starting centerfielder for two World Series teams so his weaknesses usually aren't the route of all evil. Teams can and do succeed with him.
    But neither team won (WT teams are 0-8 in the WS).... maybe that's just the definitive answer....good can fight the good fight but ultimately evil will win in the end....

    Heck without Willy Taveras playing for the Astros, the Cards might not have won the world series in 2006....think about that for a minute...





    Last edited by jojo; 06-14-2009 at 12:32 PM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner


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