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Thread: if we sell then who do we sell?

  1. #1
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    if we sell then who do we sell?

    lets say the Reds decide to be sellers come July. i would like them to move the following players:

    1. Arroyo. some people might argue we should move both Arroyo and Harang but i would hang onto Harang. he is a workhorse #2 starter. with Cueto-Harang-Volquez heading the rotation i would feel ok with guys like Owings, Maloney & Bailey as the BOR starters.

    2. Cordero (assuming he waives his no trade clause) & Weathers.
    I would hang onto Rhodes as a veteran prescence. he could actually co close with Massett. he is also cheap for next year.
    Rhodes, Massett, Fischer & Herrara are a good start to a 2010 pen. we could pick up a cheap vet to help out. fill out the pen with Burton, Viola, Manuel, Roenicke,etc

    3. anyone not signed for 2010 could also go but i wouldn't expect much in return (Hairston, Hernandez, Nix, Gomes, etc)

    the 2010 team needs a shortstop. Valaika has been hurt & was struggling at AAA prior to the injury. Cozart is at AA this year and i would expect him at AAA next year with him being pencilled in for a 2011 season in the bigs. Janish seems like a nice utility IF but would likely be overexposed as an everyday SS. we also need either someone to play either LF or 3B depending on where EE plays. guys like Frazier & Alonso might also not arrive until 2011. the trade deadline seems a nice place to start assembling next years team. i suspect Arroyo, Cordero & Weathers have some value.

    thoughts?
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  3. #2
    Kmac5 KoryMac5's Avatar
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    Re: if we sell then who do we sell?

    With Peavy off the market I feel that Harang's value will most likely never be as high as it will be at the deadline this year. Honestly I have a feeling that he will be moved if the offer is right for Walt and the team. I would imagine the Phillies will be looking at him if they swing and miss on Cliff Lee.

    Can't see anyone taking a shot on Arroyo, than again I didn't see anyone taking a shot on Lohse. Maybe a contender who scores a lot of runs could deal with Arroyo's tendencies to give up some runs but also eat innings.

    No way Cordero gets dealt that contract kills any shot especially in this economy. Weathers and Rhodes would be attractive commodities to teams that need experienced help in the bullpen.

    It will be an interesting couple of months to see what happens. July is always my favorite time of the year.
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  4. #3
    Member schroomytunes's Avatar
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    Re: if we sell then who do we sell?

    Man this is a tough topic as were .500 right now, our division is anybody's for the taking right now and we do have the pitching that other's will be looking for come the July deadline. I'm going to highlight some of the obvious things first:

    1)we need hitting--hopefully the return of EE and Votto will be like adding 2 Free Agents to the lineup and offer guys like Bruce, Hernandez, and Phillips some protection.

    2)Also getting Maloney some MLB starts wont hurt his trade value if we want to add a bat come the July deadline either, especially if he repeats his first start.

    3)If we SELL, who can we move and not hurt our chances in 2010?

    a)David Weathers--he's 39 and having a good year, but we have guy's ready in AAA, so why not move him to a contender and get a prospect or two!

    b)Nix, Hairston, Gomes, etc-anybody willing to give up a prospect come and get them!!!

    c)Francisco Cordero-solid closer, I move only if we get A+ prospects in return, ala Matt LaPorta type deal!!!!

    d)Bronson Arroyo-yes he's solid, durable, and would be a welcome addition to any team down the stretch....say Boston!!!! but it would take solid prospects in return for his services!!!

    No way do I give these guys away(Cordero/Arroyo) just to unload their salary, I make the big guys pay up!! ie NYY, Bos, LAA, LAD

  5. #4
    getting younger alloverjr's Avatar
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    Re: if we sell then who do we sell?

    Quote Originally Posted by schroomytunes View Post
    3)If we SELL, who can we move and not hurt our chances in 2010?

    a)David Weathers--he's 39 and having a good year, but we have guy's ready in AAA, so why not move him to a contender and get a prospect or two!

    b)Nix, Hairston, Gomes, etc-anybody willing to give up a prospect come and get them!!!

    c)Francisco Cordero-solid closer, I move only if we get A+ prospects in return, ala Matt LaPorta type deal!!!!

    d)Bronson Arroyo-yes he's solid, durable, and would be a welcome addition to any team down the stretch....say Boston!!!! but it would take solid prospects in return for his services!!!

    No way do I give these guys away(Cordero/Arroyo) just to unload their salary, I make the big guys pay up!! ie NYY, Bos, LAA, LAD

    a) I don't think we get anything for Weathers. Not that a conteder couldn't use a guy like him, I just don't see a return there. It may be a "thanks" to David to move him to a contender in what are probably his final year(s).

    b) No real value there either. Non roster invitees except Hairston. They could have been had by anyone months ago.

    C) Here's the guy I really push. Bullpen's been great this year save Lincoln and Burton and Cordero's been a big part of that. However if you can deal him and pick up the extra coin for next year when I think the real window is I can't think of a downside. Getting an A+ return may be a dream but would be icing for me.

    D) I think Bronson has more value than some on this board give him credit for. I do think it is necessary to move one of Harang or Bronson and while I'd prefer Harang I wouldn't blink if he was moved for a plus return.

    Cueto, Volquez, 1 of Bronson or Aaron, and Bailey could still be a top rotation going into '10. Upgrades via trade (more likely) or free agency for SS and LF are mandatory imo.
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    Re: if we sell then who do we sell?

    At this point, Cordero is the only hard currency.

  7. #6
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: if we sell then who do we sell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo View Post
    At this point, Cordero is the only hard currency.
    Cordero has a no trade. It probably will take cash to get him to waive it. Extra cash for Cordero means less talent coming back to Cincy IMO. I wait until the off-season with him when his no trade becomes a limited no trade. But in the off-season I try like heck to deal him. Maybe sign a cheaper vet (like say, David Weathers of all people) as insurance while looking to the kids to step up.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

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  8. #7
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: if we sell then who do we sell?

    I guess I'm in the minority when I say that I don't deal ANY major league starting pitchers. The arguments I've read tend to read somewhere along the lines of "even if we deal Arroyo or Harang, we still have a decent rotation". The key word being "decent". I don't want "decent". I want EXCELLENT. I want near the top of the league type of rotation. I want an Atlanta Braves type of dominant rotation. This whole window of opportunity crap bothers me too. Why do we have a short window in which to compete? Why is it inevitable that our pitching will go DOWN-hill?

    We've built a solid and deep farm system that has surplus' at several positions that are even causing us to juggle players to find them playing time. To me, that begs the question, why aren't we exploring trades of these surplus players? If you want to improve the club for the future, then deal off the extras that don't figure into the future due to better (and more experienced) players blocking them. If the Reds don't have any interest in moving Votto off of firstbase (and it's certainly a possibility that they don't want to despite what Redszoners' want), then why aren't they dangling Alonso? If they don't have any plans of moving Edwin to another position or trading him, then why are they holding onto the plethora of 3B'men in the minors and repositioning them instead of dangling them to fill depth-chart holes in the minors and on the parent club?

    Selling off viable & productive parts of the big club aren't what I'm interested in. I'd rather see us sell from surplus to fill holes. And that surplus is in the minors.
    2014 predictions:
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  9. #8
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: if we sell then who do we sell?

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    I guess I'm in the minority when I say that I don't deal ANY major league starting pitchers. The arguments I've read tend to read somewhere along the lines of "even if we deal Arroyo or Harang, we still have a decent rotation". The key word being "decent". I don't want "decent". I want EXCELLENT. I want near the top of the league type of rotation. I want an Atlanta Braves type of dominant rotation. This whole window of opportunity crap bothers me too. Why do we have a short window in which to compete? Why is it inevitable that our pitching will go DOWN-hill?

    We've built a solid and deep farm system that has surplus' at several positions that are even causing us to juggle players to find them playing time. To me, that begs the question, why aren't we exploring trades of these surplus players? If you want to improve the club for the future, then deal off the extras that don't figure into the future due to better (and more experienced) players blocking them. If the Reds don't have any interest in moving Votto off of firstbase (and it's certainly a possibility that they don't want to despite what Redszoners' want), then why aren't they dangling Alonso? If they don't have any plans of moving Edwin to another position or trading him, then why are they holding onto the plethora of 3B'men in the minors and repositioning them instead of dangling them to fill depth-chart holes in the minors and on the parent club?

    Selling off viable & productive parts of the big club aren't what I'm interested in. I'd rather see us sell from surplus to fill holes. And that surplus is in the minors.

    I agree, but this is a hypothetical if we sell. I wouldn't deal Harang, Arroyo, Weathers, Cordero or any of those at this point. But if this swoon keeps up for another two weeks, the Reds could sink past the point of hope for 2009 ny the All Star break. Then its time to rethink things.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  10. #9
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    Re: if we sell then who do we sell?

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I agree, but this is a hypothetical if we sell. I wouldn't deal Harang, Arroyo, Weathers, Cordero or any of those at this point. But if this swoon keeps up for another two weeks, the Reds could sink past the point of hope for 2009 ny the All Star break. Then its time to rethink things.
    Agree. After we're out of it, I'd consider trading three of the four above--all but Harang. I simply think it is too difficult to get a starter of that quality to come to Cincinnati; I don't see us contending without him in 2010. Unfortunately for Arroyo I think all we get is salary relief, but, of course, that's not nothing and will be important for 2010. But I think it's unrealistic to think other teams will give both prospects and salary relief for Arroyo.

  11. #10
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: if we sell then who do we sell?

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I agree, but this is a hypothetical if we sell. I wouldn't deal Harang, Arroyo, Weathers, Cordero or any of those at this point. But if this swoon keeps up for another two weeks, the Reds could sink past the point of hope for 2009 ny the All Star break. Then its time to rethink things.
    Yeah, I know it's a hypothetical. But even in that scenerio...I don't deal starting pitchers. This staff has the potential to go the route of the Braves back when it was Glavine, Smoltz, Maddux, Avery. I'm sure some will roll their eyes at that thought...but I'm dead serious about it. If Cueto & Volquez are the real deal as we think they are...would there be a better 3rd & 4th starter tandem in the league than Harang & Arroyo? I sure don't see it.

    But in regards to who DO I sell off if we are in a sell mode...well, I deal the age. Weathers, Rhodes from the pen (even though they're both doing well). The older OF'ers (I know most of them are fringe players...but if they don't fit into the future...they're expendable). The older IF'ers (Gonzo, Hairston). The older catcher (Hernandez). If you're going to sell...do it towards a youth trend and with a thought of opening up roster space for close to the cusp minor leaguers.

    That method may not net us much...but if it opens up the roster space to give the young guys shots and also allows us to move guys up through the minors that deserately need it...then it's worth it.

    In a side note...teams that do go into sell mode...seldom do the same to thier minor league system. I think that's a mistake. If you're going to jettison players to save money and to go for youth, then you need to deal off or dump the older players in AAA as well to allow for more freedom of advancement. It's gotten better the past few years, but in the past we've seen far too many career minor leaguers clogging up Louisville for my taste.
    Last edited by _Sir_Charles_; 06-15-2009 at 09:18 PM.
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

  12. #11
    Member schroomytunes's Avatar
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    Re: if we sell then who do we sell?

    I agree with the Alonzo aspect, if we are not going to move Votto off of 1st base than why not make him part of a mega package to land some offensive talent NOW!! If I'm Walt this is my proposal:

    Reds trade-Yonder Alonso as a PTBNL, Josh Roenicke, Chris Dickerson, and Dallas Buck(AA)

    YA can't be dealt till August hence the PTBNL tag.

    Oakland trades- Matt Holliday and Michael Wuertz(RHRP) But Walt can nix the deal if we can't sign Holliday to long-term deal within 72 hours.

  13. #12
    Start the Reactor! *BaseClogger*'s Avatar
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    Re: if we sell then who do we sell?

    I think I should change my sig:

    1. Francisco Cordero has a no-trade clause through 2009, followed by a limited no-trade clause.

    2. Matt Holliday is a Scott Boras client. He is not going to sign an extension, and he is not going to sign with a team like the Reds.
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

  14. #13
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: if we sell then who do we sell?

    Quote Originally Posted by *BaseClogger* View Post
    I think I should change my sig:
    players waive their NTC all the time. to say 'there is no way we could trade Cordero because he has a NTC' is just plain wrong.
    .

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    Re: if we sell then who do we sell?

    I would not trade Cordero. Good closers are hard to find. Set up men often fail as closers.

    The Reds could try guys like Massett as closer, but it's a big risk.

    I would concentrate on a package including Arroyo, Weathers, perhaps Chris Heisey who is having a big year at AA, and maybe one other prospect.
    Last edited by Kc61; 06-15-2009 at 11:58 PM.

  16. #15
    Member schroomytunes's Avatar
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    Re: if we sell then who do we sell?

    What offensive power hitter w/nt want to play half of their games in GABP!!! Imagine the #'s you could put up here if you were a power hitter!!! Now if you said Petco Park I would agree, but not GABP!


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