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Thread: If Dusty Played The Best Hitters ...

  1. #16
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: If Dusty Played The Best Hitters ...

    You can't base your lineup and defensive alignment on offense alone. Leaving Dickerson out of the equation as the CFer, Far East, subs a great Rf defender into CF where he is average or worse, and replaces that good defense in right with an average or worse fielder.

    I want more offense too, but Gomes at first right now instead of Hernandez would help. Then you can rest Hanigan or have a good PHer on the bench and you're back to a great catching tandem. Sub Dickerson in CF for Taveras, and you improve defense AND offense. Play JHJ at short where he looks far more comfortable, sacrificing a bit of defense for a bat - but I don't think the dropoff is all that great from AGon anymore. Send Rosales down and try Sutton on the bench. Defense at third has been the weakest spot so at least maybe Sutton can provide a better bat - he can't be worse than JHJ at third, or you can be crazy and try Janish with that rocket arm - giving up a bit of offense for the glove making the defense even tighter than it has been - on the theory you go all out to help the pitchers right now since offensive shuffling is just a band-aid with this roster, at least until Votto and EE return.

    Dusty, however is anything but creative. He may be the least inventive manager I've seen. He has a book and he'll keep trying to force players to fit his scheme instead of scheming to fit his players into their best roles.

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  3. #17
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: If Dusty Played The Best Hitters ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    Offensively it worked.

    The pitching still sucked wind.

    Just seems like within the last 2 years, we've gone from trying to be an offensive 1st club with pitching as an afterthought, to a pitching and defense 1st club with offense as a distant afterthought.
    An offense that won games with power and it turned out to be an offense that lost often because it was a one dimensional approach to the game.

    I saw a HR centered offense comes with warts....warts that caused them to rarely win any low scoring games, get shut down regularly by junkers and high K pitchers weekly and lose games on the other side of the ball because they were an offense only centric team.

    In short, bad baseball outside of the pitchers existed too and it was boring baseball, even despite the offense.

    My take is that many of the younger guys on the board have never seen the game ratchet back offense, it's new and scary when the game swings against what you think it should be, and it happens right under your nose, on your watch and well... it's freaky.

    I like freaky, I found the last few years of Reds baseball terribly boring myself, pushing me away more than embracing my interests. Sure the offense is boring now, but the team is more interesting and fixing it doesn't seem as much a task as it had in prior offense centric years.

  4. #18
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: If Dusty Played The Best Hitters ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Far East View Post
    The biggest change, however, was moving an outfielder, Rose, to 3B in order to get slugger and future MVP Foster into the starting OF.

    Today's Reds already have the arms. And Dickerson (at CF) and Janish are far better defenders than Rose (at 3B) and Foster.

    No, the Reds were a good team years prior to 1975.

    The biggest change was getting a young SS up to speed, and a GG CF and GG 2nd baseman in 71. That's when the mediocre Red pitchers became better.

    Sure it helped that the 2nd basemen was Joe Morgan, but the other two guys couldn't hit a lick... and they'd have their own thread for it in todays game.

  5. #19
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: If Dusty Played The Best Hitters ...

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    No, the Reds were a good team years prior to 1975.

    The biggest change was getting a young SS up to speed, and a GG CF and GG 2nd baseman in 71. That's when the mediocre Red pitchers became better.

    Sure it helped that the 2nd basemen was Joe Morgan, but the other two guys couldn't hit a lick... and they'd have their own thread for it in todays game.
    I'm laughing WOY, thinking of how Concepcion and Geronimo would have been excoriated by this board when they were youngsters.

    Even the trade that brought Morgan was unpopular when it happened - Tommy Helms and the Big Bopper for Morgan and Billingham?? You're kidding right? A true slugger and gold glove second sacker for a little bitty base stealer and Billingham - a mediocre looking pitcher. How the heck does THAT deal make the team better?

    That's what people were asking. Helms and May were wildly popular with fans. Morgan was seen as talented but under achieving - he hadn't really hit his stride with bat yet. Menke was a glove that couldn't hit who was moved to third. Most fans saw the deal as a blunder on a Frank Robby scale.

    Even then the BRM wasn't completed. It still took Rose's move to third, the Foster steal for Duffy, and Sparky's emerging BP philosophy with a stockpile of relievers like Eastwick, McEnaney, Borbon, and Carroll to complete the painting.
    Memories.
    Last edited by RedlegJake; 06-20-2009 at 11:23 AM.

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    Re: If Dusty Played The Best Hitters ...

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    No, the Reds were a good team years prior to 1975.

    The biggest change was getting a young SS up to speed, and a GG CF and GG 2nd baseman in 71. That's when the mediocre Red pitchers became better...
    But that offense batted its good field-no hit CF and SS 7th and 8th; the lineup could afford their weaker hitting, sporting the likes of Rose, Griffey, Morgan, Bench, Foster, and Perez. They became the BRM when they made room for their 4th OFer (Foster) by displacing a very good defender at 3B, John Vukovich, with one of their 4 best OFers, Rose.

    Benching Vukovich and sacrificing his glove, for the sake of a better offense made the machine.

  7. #21
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    Re: If Dusty Played The Best Hitters ...

    Quote Originally Posted by nate View Post
    Please, it's not "business as usual." "Business as usual" is running Willy T out there in the leadoff spot when Chris Dickerson is just as good in CF and leagues better with the bat.

    Is the net production from one of the OF'ers playing 1B > than Ramon? Then do it.

    Hopefully this won't be a problem due to Votto coming back.



    I want it to work awesomely.

    Not "pretty well."

    Busines as usual" as in the past ten years, where an inadequate CF roaming three steps from his spot in the center of the diamond to catch a ball and everything else that fell between he and the statues on the corners fell for hits.

    But I'm guessing you knew that already.

    I'd like it to "work awesomely" as well, nate, but understand that, sometimes, kids have to crawl before they walk and walk before they run. Patience is the key.

    But I'm hoping you knew that, too.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  8. #22
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    Re: If Dusty Played The Best Hitters ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Far East View Post
    But that offense batted its good field-no hit CF and SS 7th and 8th; the lineup could afford their weaker hitting, sporting the likes of Rose, Griffey, Morgan, Bench, Foster, and Perez. They became the BRM when they made room for their 4th OFer (Foster) by displacing a very good defender at 3B, John Vukovich, with one of their 4 best OFers, Rose.

    Benching Vukovich and sacrificing his glove, for the sake of a better offense made the machine.
    An OF that had already shown an ability to play the IF at a more demanding position and perhaps the most versatile defensive player of his era.

    As to Vukovich, he was starting there because Perez just couldn't handle the hot corner defensively.

    Stops and starts.

    Patience.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  9. #23
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    Re: If Dusty Played The Best Hitters ...

    Some history. We also acquired Denis Menke in the trade with Houston and Menke was the primary third baseman in 1972 and 1973, allowing the move of Perez to first base. John Vuckovich played very little for the Reds, probably in 1974. This was, as I remember it, when the decision to move Rose to 3b was made.

  10. #24
    High five! nate's Avatar
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    Re: If Dusty Played The Best Hitters ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Busines as usual" as in the past ten years, where an inadequate CF roaming three steps from his spot in the center of the diamond to catch a ball and everything else that fell between he and the statues on the corners fell for hits.
    And no pitching.

    And one or two good hitters surrounded by dreck.

    But I'm guessing you knew that already.
    And more.

    I'd like it to "work awesomely" as well, nate, but understand that, sometimes, kids have to crawl before they walk and walk before they run. Patience is the key.
    Nothing about the changes proposed has anything to do with "patience." It has to do with getting Willy T out of the lineup. It has to do with maybe seeing Paul Janish play more than once a month.

    But I'm hoping you knew that, too.
    Shame on me for wanting the team to play to it's fullest potential.
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

  11. #25
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: If Dusty Played The Best Hitters ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Far East View Post
    But that offense batted its good field-no hit CF and SS 7th and 8th; the lineup could afford their weaker hitting, sporting the likes of Rose, Griffey, Morgan, Bench, Foster, and Perez. They became the BRM when they made room for their 4th OFer (Foster) by displacing a very good defender at 3B, John Vukovich, with one of their 4 best OFers, Rose.

    Benching Vukovich and sacrificing his glove, for the sake of a better offense made the machine.
    You're using the one of the top ten offenses of NL history as a barometer, that in itself sets off the measurement IMO.

    Code:
    NATIONAL LEAGUE
    SEASON
    MODERN (1900-)
    
    RUNS                          YEAR     DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE   
    1    Pirates                  1902      193      775      582   
    2    Dodgers                  1953      189      955      766   
    3    Reds                     1976      178      857      679   
    4    Rockies                  1996      177      961      784   
    5    Rockies                  1997      149      923      774   
    6    Reds                     1975      147      840      693   
    7    Reds                     1965      138      825      687   
    8    Dodgers                  1955      136      857      721   
    9    Giants                   1905      135      780      645   
    10   Giants                   1924      133      857      724   
    
    RUNS CREATED/GAME             YEAR     DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE   
    1    Reds                     1976     1.47     5.75     4.28   
    2    Dodgers                  1953     1.22     6.62     5.40   
    3    Pirates                  1902     1.21     5.63     4.42   
    4    Rockies                  2001     1.03     6.30     5.27   
    5    Rockies                  1996     1.02     6.08     5.06   
    6    Giants                   1905     1.00     5.76     4.76   
    7    Rockies                  1997     0.99     6.12     5.12   
    8    Reds                     1965     0.98     5.33     4.35   
    9    Braves                   2003     0.89     6.04     5.15   
    10   Reds                     1975     0.81     5.34     4.53

  12. #26
    Knowledge Is Good Big Klu's Avatar
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    Re: If Dusty Played The Best Hitters ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Far East View Post
    But that offense batted its good field-no hit CF and SS 7th and 8th; the lineup could afford their weaker hitting, sporting the likes of Rose, Griffey, Morgan, Bench, Foster, and Perez. They became the BRM when they made room for their 4th OFer (Foster) by displacing a very good defender at 3B, John Vukovich, with one of their 4 best OFers, Rose.

    Benching Vukovich and sacrificing his glove, for the sake of a better offense made the machine.
    Those teams prior to 1975 also had a revolving door of yuck in RF that would have sent RedsZone into a full-scale feeding frenzy--Joe Hague, Ted Uhlaender, Andy Kosco, Larry Stahl, Merv Rettenmund, Terry Crowley. (Ken Griffey did not nail down the RF job until the latter part of the 1974 season.) And George Foster was a disappointment of Wily Mo Peņa proportions at that time. Additionally, the reason a good-glove, no-stick player like John Vukovich was even at 3B in the first place was that a superior offensive player, Dan Driessen, had proven he couldn't handle the position after a full season in 1974.
    Eric Stratton, Rush Chairman. Damn glad to meet ya.

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    Re: If Dusty Played The Best Hitters ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Far East View Post
    But that offense batted its good field-no hit CF and SS 7th and 8th; the lineup could afford their weaker hitting, sporting the likes of Rose, Griffey, Morgan, Bench, Foster, and Perez.
    Calling Concepcion and Geronimo no-hit is simply not true.

    In 74-77, Concepcion averaged .278-9-60, and Geronimo averaged .278-6-52.

    And they averaged about 45 SB's between them.

    Not sluggers to be sure, but pretty good in a lesser offensive era.

  14. #28
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: If Dusty Played The Best Hitters ...

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    Some history. We also acquired Denis Menke in the trade with Houston and Menke was the primary third baseman in 1972 and 1973, allowing the move of Perez to first base. John Vuckovich played very little for the Reds, probably in 1974. This was, as I remember it, when the decision to move Rose to 3b was made.
    Ok, since I started the BRM allusion, we need to get the context of my comment straight. 1968 and 1969, the Reds were very good under Dave Bristol. In 1968, I imagine if you look at the offense in comparison to the rest of the leagues in the year of the pitcher, they were about as strong offensively as a team could be in that era. But, 1968, even in the year of the pitcher, the Reds ranks were thin. Jim Maloney was a valid ace, but after that, it was mediocrity to bad. Ted Abernathy had a good year in the pen, but again, a big drop off in the rest of the pen. Milt Pappas was traded for Clay Carroll, and all that did was help the bullpen but further weaken the rotation.

    Then, along comes 1969, expansion and divisional play, plus the mound was lowered and the strike zone adjusted. The Reds hung around even better than the year before, but the more balanced Braves had a good offense and were just enough better pitching and defensively to leave the offensively dominating but mediocre pitching Reds in second place. The main problem here was the rotation, and the bullpen, which was very good anchored by Wayne Granger and Carroll, just had too many innings to cover. Bristol gets fired, Sparky is hired.

    In 1970, the Reds smoke the league in the first half of the season with an above average rotation, with Wayne Simpson, Jim McGlothlin (trade from Angels), Jim Merritt, and Gary Nolan solidifying the staff long enough for the offense to steamroller the league. The pen was the bomb as well, with Granger and Carroll anchoring, but good support from Gullett (19) and Cloninger until he hit the rotation due to injury. The D was still average at best, with a young, error prone Concepcion, good field no hit Helms at 2b, and Perez butchering 3b, while Lee May was passable at 1b. The OF was above average, carried by Rose in RF and Tolan in CF.

    Finally, in 1972, the team became balanced and lethal. Bench is Bench, they get Morgan, Geronimo, Concepcion is developing fast and Rose/Tolan combo continue to cover the OF to comprise the heart of a suddenly very good D. Gullett is a young gun in the rotation, and Billingham is probably a bit underrated around here. He was a very solid pitcher before the Reds got him from Houston, and was a good rotation anchor, much like Harang today--not an ace, but an anchor. The rotation was improving and the bullpen was still very good.

    From there, it was tweaking until they ran over baseball in 75-76 with all the parts finally in place. FYI, Vuckovich was 1975 and flopped, prompting the Foster/Rose move.

    Hopefully, the BRM book will refresh a lot of memories that for me are still very fresh.
    Last edited by traderumor; 06-20-2009 at 01:05 PM.

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    Re: If Dusty Played The Best Hitters ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    ...As to Vukovich, he was starting there because Perez just couldn't handle the hot corner defensively...
    By the time Vukowich was playing 3B, Perez was already at 1B, with May having been traded to Houston.

    But the main point is that sometimes a team (depending, of course, on other variables such as pitching/ other defenders, etc.) can profit by substituting offense for defense. The '09 Reds need to score more runs.

  16. #30
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    Re: If Dusty Played The Best Hitters ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Far East View Post
    By the time Vukowich was playing 3B, Perez was already at 1B, with May having been traded to Houston.

    But the main point is that sometimes a team (depending, of course, on other variables such as pitching/ other defenders, etc.) can profit by substituting offense for defense. The '09 Reds need to score more runs.
    It is the other variables that turn a 3rd grade math problem (score more runs) into a multivariable equation (making improvements on the RS side without incrementally negatively impacting the RA side). Discussing finding the player(s) to accomplish that is what makes up a lot of RZ activity.


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