Turn Off Ads?
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 31 to 39 of 39

Thread: If Dusty Played The Best Hitters ...

  1. #31
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Bristol, just around the corner from ESPN
    Posts
    8,694

    Re: If Dusty Played The Best Hitters ...

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    If it worked offensively, then why the run of losing seasons? All the Reds illustrated was that it is not possible to build an offense so strong that all you have to do is run a warm body out on the mound to win in MLB. Even the BRM did not start winning divisions/playoffs/World Series until they got some arms and shored up the D.
    When your pitching is so bad it negates your offense, you rack up a run of losing seasons.

    For the sake of argument, over the Lost Decade, we'd need to plate at least 1000 runs a year to make up for that horrid pitching staff.

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #32
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Bristol, just around the corner from ESPN
    Posts
    8,694

    Re: If Dusty Played The Best Hitters ...

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    An offense that won games with power and it turned out to be an offense that lost often because it was a one dimensional approach to the game.

    I saw a HR centered offense comes with warts....warts that caused them to rarely win any low scoring games, get shut down regularly by junkers and high K pitchers weekly and lose games on the other side of the ball because they were an offense only centric team.

    In short, bad baseball outside of the pitchers existed too and it was boring baseball, even despite the offense.

    My take is that many of the younger guys on the board have never seen the game ratchet back offense, it's new and scary when the game swings against what you think it should be, and it happens right under your nose, on your watch and well... it's freaky.

    I like freaky, I found the last few years of Reds baseball terribly boring myself, pushing me away more than embracing my interests. Sure the offense is boring now, but the team is more interesting and fixing it doesn't seem as much a task as it had in prior offense centric years.
    I find the current team boring, but at least it's a change in philosophy from the Lost Decade.

    Unfortunately, we need to continue to improve the pitching AND the defense, if we're not going to address the offense.

    Best case scenario, we address all 3.

    Worst case, I hope we address the pitching, and then figure out which of the other 2 is easier to address.

  4. #33
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    4,540

    Re: If Dusty Played The Best Hitters ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Far East View Post
    By the time Vukowich was playing 3B, Perez was already at 1B, with May having been traded to Houston.

    But the main point is that sometimes a team (depending, of course, on other variables such as pitching/ other defenders, etc.) can profit by substituting offense for defense. The '09 Reds need to score more runs.
    Perez moved to 3b when we acquired Menke in the trade with Houston: Helms, May, and Stewart for Morgan, Billingham, Menke, Geronimo, and Armbrister. That was the whole trade.

  5. #34
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    4,540

    Re: If Dusty Played The Best Hitters ...

    Sorry, Perez moved from 3b to 1b when we got Menke.

  6. #35
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    4,742

    Re: If Dusty Played The Best Hitters ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post

    As to Vukovich, he was starting there because Perez just couldn't handle the hot corner defensively.

    .
    Tony's numbers with the glove were much worse than I had imagined.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...erezto01.shtml
    Last edited by George Anderson; 06-21-2009 at 05:40 PM.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

  7. #36
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    42,710

    Re: If Dusty Played The Best Hitters ...

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    Tony's numbers with the glove were much worse than I had imagined.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...erezto01.shtml
    No not good at all, check out Santo's assist total in 1967 3rd highest in modern history.

    Code:
    ERRORS                        YEAR      E       PCT     RANGE      A       AGE       G     
    1    Tony Perez               1970       35     .923     2.73      286       28      153   
    2    Tony Perez               1969       32     .937     2.99      342       27      160   
    3    Mike Shannon             1967       29     .919     2.68      239       27      122   
    T4   Ron Santo                1969       27     .947     2.99      334       29      160   
    T4   Ron Santo                1970       27     .945     3.05      320       30      152   
    6    Ron Santo                1967       26     .957     3.60      393       27      161   
    T7   Tony Perez               1968       25     .952     3.09      343       26      160   
    T7   Coco Laboy               1969       25     .944     2.71      307       29      156   
    T7   Doug Rader               1969       25     .945     2.81      307       24      154   
    10   Maury Wills              1967       24     .948     3.06      343       34      144

  8. #37
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Bellefontaine, Ohio
    Posts
    26,668

    Re: If Dusty Played The Best Hitters ...

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    I'm laughing WOY, thinking of how Concepcion and Geronimo would have been excoriated by this board when they were youngsters.
    Heavens yes they would.

    I have the 75 WS on DVD, and as I've watched those games I thought... "Man! If we had today's game thread on those games it would be merciless."

    Even the trade that brought Morgan was unpopular when it happened - Tommy Helms and the Big Bopper for Morgan and Billingham?? You're kidding right? A true slugger and gold glove second sacker for a little bitty base stealer and Billingham - a mediocre looking pitcher. How the heck does THAT deal make the team better?
    A couple years back at Redsfest I got to meet Lee May, who was one of my favorite Reds. He's a class act too. The guy has the biggest set of hands I have ever seen on a man, and even at his age his handshake crushed my hand.

    But even all these many years later, after that "trade", I apologized to Lee for them trading him. :
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  9. #38
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Right Down Broadway
    Posts
    18,662

    Re: If Dusty Played The Best Hitters ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    When your pitching is so bad it negates your offense, you rack up a run of losing seasons.

    For the sake of argument, over the Lost Decade, we'd need to plate at least 1000 runs a year to make up for that horrid pitching staff.
    The price for scoring runs was also that the hitters were poor defenders. Those teams were unbalanced, that is why they lost. Divvy up the blame anyway you like, but it would be very simplistic to blame it all on pitching.

  10. #39
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Bedford, KY
    Posts
    8,992

    Re: If Dusty Played The Best Hitters ...

    Yep, part of the reason Cincinnati struggled so mightily is that two-thirds of the game-- defense and pitching-- was almost completely ignored or hopes were pinned on prayers that had little to no chance at success.

    That's not on the players at all either. That's all about the front office. Looking at the team from 2001- til last year you could make the assertion that they owned at least two guys each year who were Bottom Five with the leather in their respective positions.

    2001: Todd Walker, Dmitri Young, Junior
    2002: Walker, Dunn, Larkin
    2003: Dunn, Larkin, Jiminez
    2004: Dunn, Junior
    2005: Aurillia, Lopez, Junior, Dunn
    2006: Ross, Lopez, Junior, Dunn, EdE
    2007: Ross, EdE, Junior, Dunn

    None of this mentions slightly below average defenders like LaRue, Jimenez, Hamilton, Guillen and others playing out of position.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
    -- Leo Durocher


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25