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Thread: I told you guys Owings wasn't worthy of our 5th spot

  1. #106
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    Re: I told you guys Owings wasn't worthy of our 5th spot

    Quote Originally Posted by LouisvilleCARDS View Post
    If he didn't want that response he shouldn't have posted. Lets look at the difference between voicing an opinion and blatant baiting or flaming.

    He posted this after ONE bad outing. He didn't say anything to back up his opinion, and then asked others to prove him wrong. They go out and do research, and the guy doesn't even respond to the numbers. There was 3, 4 people who backed up why he was incorrect, then he didn't respond to them after they put in the effort to look it up when he didn't.

    It just seems as if the guy has a personal vendetta against him, I don't understand it. His numbers aren't even the worst on the STAFF. And compared to year long #5 starters, I am guessing he's among the league leaders. So no, I don't think the response is unfair, he specifically asked people to prove him wrong and they did, and he didn't respond with anything of his own.
    I'm not sure where I can find a stat to illustrate that Owings throws the ball down the middle of the plate too often. I feel like this is something I'm just seeing before it's the known consensus in these parts; not a vendetta against a player.

    I'm surprised the support for Owings is this high. He's projected on the season to go 11-18 with 92 BB to 109 K, allowing 193 hits.

    You guys should feel like you've won the argument when he's come out and had a few starts in a row like the one he's just had. Not now, not yet. I'd rather have thrown a youngster like Maloney or Bailey in the 5th spot to get the 32 or 33 starts rather then a guy who they're going to discover finds too many bats to pitch in Great American Ballpark.
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  3. #107
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    Re: I told you guys Owings wasn't worthy of our 5th spot

    Quote Originally Posted by JayBruce32 View Post
    I'm not sure where I can find a stat to illustrate that Owings throws the ball down the middle of the plate too often. I feel like this is something I'm just seeing before it's the known consensus in these parts; not a vendetta against a player.

    I'm surprised the support for Owings is this high. He's projected on the season to go 11-18 with 92 BB to 109 K, allowing 193 hits.

    You guys should feel like you've won the argument when he's come out and had a few starts in a row like the one he's just had. Not now, not yet. I'd rather have thrown a youngster like Maloney or Bailey in the 5th spot to get the 32 or 33 starts rather then a guy who they're going to discover finds too many bats to pitch in Great American Ballpark.
    Can I remind you that our 5th starter last year went 4-21 or something like that?

  4. #108
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    Re: I told you guys Owings wasn't worthy of our 5th spot

    Im confused on what we should want out of our 5th starter because of this thread.

  5. #109
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    Re: I told you guys Owings wasn't worthy of our 5th spot

    If Homer Bailey can manage even a 2/1, or even 1.5/1 K/BB ratio over the time spanning before Volquez's return, then this is something that can be thought about in the most remote sense. As of right now, Owings is mountains better than both Maloney and Bailey. Baliey walks way more people than he should be while using a slow delivery that begs those who he walks to steal bases. If your issue with Owings is that he pitches through the heart of the plate too often, then you should see if you can find highlights of the insane amount of HRs given up by Maloney on his stint up here. The pitches that were getting air mailed out of the stadium were hardly sliders low and away or fastballs in on the hands. They were hangers and straw-straight changes and 4-seamers.
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  6. #110
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    Re: I told you guys Owings wasn't worthy of our 5th spot

    Quote Originally Posted by GIDP View Post
    Im confused on what we should want out of our 5th starter because of this thread.
    Well apparently you want him to be "league average" with "league average" stats.

    Which really doesn't make sense, since you'd think if he WAS "league average" he wouldn't be a Fifth starter, right?!?!

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    Alonso will be playing 1B for the REDS and batting 4th one year from today. - Kingspoint, July 9, 2009

  7. #111
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    Re: I told you guys Owings wasn't worthy of our 5th spot

    Quote Originally Posted by JayBruce32 View Post
    I'm surprised the support for Owings is this high. He's projected on the season to go 11-18 with 92 BB to 109 K, allowing 193 hits.
    Where exactly are you getting these "projections" from?
    By taking his current stats and doubling them?!? That would be a very bad method of prognostication, especially for wins.

    Look at WHIP and ERA.

    His ERA is respectable, in fact more than respectable for a #5 starter.

    His WHIP is a bit higher than average, but I think he'll settle down as the year progresses. He is coming off an injury you know, so he wasn't very sharp early on.

    He is less than two years removed from a 27 start season with 4.30 ERA and 1.28 WHIP.

    Don't worry about wins - that has more to do with the Team's offense and defense than it does the Pitcher. Surely you know that.

    Also, he carries a pretty hefty stick. Career .305 average with an .889 OPS. that surely helps a team.
    Heck, he had to crack a 3 run homer in one game to win since the crappy offense only had 3 other hits on a day, luckily one of them was in front of him before he hit the bomb, otherwise we'd have lost on a day where our Terrible 5th starter went 6 innings and gave up 2 runs.

    We can do A LOT worse than Owings for a #5 starter, and we have, for like 20 years now...

    PEACE

    -BLEEDS
    I think that in a year or two, one of these guys - Frazier, Dorn, Valaika, Cumberland, Stubbs - will be ready to replace Dunn. They won't hit as many home runs as Dunn, but they should have similar OPS. - 757690, July 22, 2008

    Alonso will be playing 1B for the REDS and batting 4th one year from today. - Kingspoint, July 9, 2009

  8. #112
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    Re: I told you guys Owings wasn't worthy of our 5th spot

    Guess what Reds pitcher has the highest VORP in 2009? That's right, everyone's favorite 5th starter, Micah Owings.
    Owings: 5.9
    Bronson: .6
    Cueto: .3
    Harang: -.1
    Bailey: -.3
    Volquez: -1.6

    And, just for fun:
    Willy T.: -6.9
    Alex Gonzalez: -7.4
    Adam Rosales: -8.8
    Variatio delectat - Cicero

  9. #113
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    Re: I told you guys Owings wasn't worthy of our 5th spot

    owings is good enough to be our left fielder, we can get any cheap 5th starter to do what he is doing, time to turn him in to the RH version of Rick Ankiel, we could use the right handed bat that Walt says we need!!
    Bowled 9 300 games, semi-retired!

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  10. #114
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    Re: I told you guys Owings wasn't worthy of our 5th spot

    Quote Originally Posted by Ohioballplayer View Post
    owings is good enough to be our left fielder, we can get any cheap 5th starter to do what he is doing, time to turn him in to the RH version of Rick Ankiel, we could use the right handed bat that Walt says we need!!
    While I can see what you are thinking, I don't think we can throw any "cheap 5th starter" out there. If that were true than why did the Reds have such a problem finding a 5th starter last year? If Homer can find some success with the MLB club this time around and Volquez comes back then your idea would be a more feasible, but right now Owings is better off where he is.
    Last edited by Caveman Techie; 06-30-2009 at 03:12 PM. Reason: The eternal quest against typos continues
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  11. #115
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    Re: I told you guys Owings wasn't worthy of our 5th spot

    owings is not good enough as a fielder or at the plate to be a everyday position player.

  12. #116
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    Re: I told you guys Owings wasn't worthy of our 5th spot

    Converting Owings to a position player would be a lengthy commitment, probably taking two years or more in order to have him be adequate defensively at a position, let along good or great. It would also be an absolutely awful idea considering that he is producing at a very high level as a pitcher. He is unquestionably a viable starting pitcher in MLB, probably being in 95% of rotations right now, and as a #4 or #3 in a lot of those. Ankiel couldn't find the plate with a divining rod when he was converted to an OF. These cases are very very different. Owings is just fine as a SP. His bat makes the lineup just that much stronger, as he is no longer an automatic out (especially compared to Harang at the dish).
    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Thus his team was punished

    Long live punishment
    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
    The base you want to acquire is home.

  13. #117
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    Re: I told you guys Owings wasn't worthy of our 5th spot

    Quote Originally Posted by bgwilly31 View Post
    owings is not good enough as a fielder or at the plate to be a everyday position player.
    Neither is half our starting lineup haha. (Not that I endorse moving Owings to LF).

  14. #118
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    Re: I told you guys Owings wasn't worthy of our 5th spot

    I think both sides have an argument. Owings is pitching better than his stuff would indicate he should. His funky delivery doesn't allow for consistency when trying to hit the outside part of the plate vs. RH (amongst other stuff related issues). Which is why JB32 complains of him throwing the ball down the middle too much. Start watching where the catcher wants the ball and where the ball ends up when he is pitching. Any major league pitcher and/or pitching coach will tell you that the outside part of the plate is where you make your living (for the most part).

    Prime example, Carlos Zambrano hitting that HR off of him. In the 1st AB Zambrano who is a switch hitter couldn't do anything with Owings stuff from the left side because Owings was hitting the outside part of the plate, the nearest part of the plate to his gloveside. Owings can hit that side a lot more consistently. The next AB Zambrano comes up as a RH hitter and goes yard off of him because he couldn't reach that outside corner against him. Now ask yourself why a pitcher would swing RH off of a RHP when he doesn't have too unless he had a darn good reason. Zambrano recognized it and took advantage. I think he's due for a correction against RHB who have not had the greatest of fortune against him to this point with a .268 BABIP against. LHB's have hit him better BA wise but RHB's still have a higher OPS against him due to the superior slugging they do against him.

    Then again it should also be noted that as Bleeds mentioned he is still getting his feet under him from surgery. So is it fair to make an assesment in his return year after a serious injury, probably not. He's still young, still cheap and being productive despite his shortcomings so enjoy it while it lasts. Let me add that I do think he will eventually end up a position player ala Ankiel because he has tremendous potential there.

  15. #119
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    Re: I told you guys Owings wasn't worthy of our 5th spot

    Quote Originally Posted by Plus Plus View Post
    I feel that this thread is going to serve as nothing more than a bashfest on the OP. Enough has been said regarding this-- I recommend that a mod close this thread in order to prevent singling out the OP and making him the target of excessive criticism any longer.

    If people want to keep talking about Owings' performance as the 5th starter, maybe a fresh start would be good. Every other thread seems to read something like "OMG JB32 IS PWND." It is tiring and pointless, and unfair to him for voicing an opinion (as incorrect as other members of the forum might see it to be).

    JB32 deserves everything coming towards him because he blatantly refuses to admit when he's wrong. It's that kind of arrogance that bothers people.

    After it was pointed out that Owings had given up less than 3 runs in 4 of his last 5 starts, he says, "well just because he pitched "one" good game"...blah, blah, blah. Then after it's pointed out again that he's done that while no other REDS' starter has come close to doing that, he says, "and had a "few" starts in a row like the one he's just had".

    First, 4 out of 5 is "one", then 4 out of 5 is just "a few". A forum should be a place where things can be "discussed", but you can't discuss anything with someone who won't listen.

    It's not that hard to say, "I was wrong". Try it, JB32, you'll feel much better. You can find at least a dozen posts where I've said it, and anybody worthy of discussing anything here has said it quite often, too.

  16. #120
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    Re: I told you guys Owings wasn't worthy of our 5th spot

    Maybe we should change this thread to "Bronson Arroyo isn't worth of our 5th spot." Games like this seem to be happening more and more often for him. As of right now, I would not even contemplate trading Owings' production for Arroyo's, regardless of money involved. Arroyo is making his contract look more and more like an untradeable albatross with every start.
    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Thus his team was punished

    Long live punishment
    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
    The base you want to acquire is home.


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