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Thread: Blue Jays are also taking offers for outfielder Alex Rios & third baseman Scott Rolen

  1. #136
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    Re: Blue Jays are also taking offers for outfielder Alex Rios & third baseman Scott R

    The problem is that the Reds need to subtract as well as add. Several 2 year deals that looked like bargains six months ago now weigh heavily on the payroll and roster. If the Reds don't manage to clear at least EE in a trade for Rolen, I can't see it happening. Apparently, the Jays don't want him because, like most ML teams these days, they are trying to shed payroll in favor of young talent. Even if you believed EE could hit enough to be a LF candidate, his defense alone should discourage giving this plan serious consideration. Extrapolating his throwing inaccuracy to LF means that a throw to the plate could be expected to land somewhere between first base and the left field side dugout. If you keep EE, his salary is added to what you obligate to Rolen because he won't have a place to play and the Reds will have to eat the salary or keep more deserving talent in the minors.

    Suppose the Jays would take EE on condition that the Reds also sweetened the deal with prospects. I would be willing to part with any young talent except the following players.
    Bailey..He is finally looking like a 1 or 2 starter.
    Heisey...He is a game changer. I am puzzled by the constant talk of acquiring a RH bat for the outfield. I wish Heisey were with the Reds now.
    Wood...A LHP this polished and this young is rare. Top of the rotation potential.

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  3. #137
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Blue Jays are also taking offers for outfielder Alex Rios & third baseman Scott R

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpup View Post
    Expecting anyone to be Albert Pujols is a little much. I believe some people have unrealistic expectations.
    I am sorry if it sounds like that is what I said.

    I am saying that only if he were putting numbers like Pujols, would he justify his defense, and even then, maybe not.

    I am not expecting EE to hit like Pujols, I am expecting him to OPS around .800 and have a -15 - -25 UZR/150 playing at 3B. Which is why I don't think he should be the Reds thirdbaseman.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  4. #138
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Blue Jays are also taking offers for outfielder Alex Rios & third baseman Scott R

    Quote Originally Posted by RED VAN HOT View Post
    The problem is that the Reds need to subtract as well as add. Several 2 year deals that looked like bargains six months ago now weigh heavily on the payroll and roster. If the Reds don't manage to clear at least EE in a trade for Rolen, I can't see it happening. Apparently, the Jays don't want him because, like most ML teams these days, they are trying to shed payroll in favor of young talent. Even if you believed EE could hit enough to be a LF candidate, his defense alone should discourage giving this plan serious consideration. Extrapolating his throwing inaccuracy to LF means that a throw to the plate could be expected to land somewhere between first base and the left field side dugout. If you keep EE, his salary is added to what you obligate to Rolen because he won't have a place to play and the Reds will have to eat the salary or keep more deserving talent in the minors.

    Suppose the Jays would take EE on condition that the Reds also sweetened the deal with prospects. I would be willing to part with any young talent except the following players.
    Bailey..He is finally looking like a 1 or 2 starter.
    Heisey...He is a game changer. I am puzzled by the constant talk of acquiring a RH bat for the outfield. I wish Heisey were with the Reds now.
    Wood...A LHP this polished and this young is rare. Top of the rotation potential.
    So you would be willing to add Alonso, Stubbs, Stewart, Frazier, Lotzkar or Soto to EE, for Rolen?
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  5. #139
    Kmac5 KoryMac5's Avatar
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    Re: Blue Jays are also taking offers for outfielder Alex Rios & third baseman Scott R

    Quote Originally Posted by RED VAN HOT View Post
    The problem is that the Reds need to subtract as well as add. Several 2 year deals that looked like bargains six months ago now weigh heavily on the payroll and roster. If the Reds don't manage to clear at least EE in a trade for Rolen, I can't see it happening. Apparently, the Jays don't want him because, like most ML teams these days, they are trying to shed payroll in favor of young talent. Even if you believed EE could hit enough to be a LF candidate, his defense alone should discourage giving this plan serious consideration. Extrapolating his throwing inaccuracy to LF means that a throw to the plate could be expected to land somewhere between first base and the left field side dugout. If you keep EE, his salary is added to what you obligate to Rolen because he won't have a place to play and the Reds will have to eat the salary or keep more deserving talent in the minors.

    Suppose the Jays would take EE on condition that the Reds also sweetened the deal with prospects. I would be willing to part with any young talent except the following players.
    Bailey..He is finally looking like a 1 or 2 starter.
    Heisey...He is a game changer. I am puzzled by the constant talk of acquiring a RH bat for the outfield. I wish Heisey were with the Reds now.
    Wood...A LHP this polished and this young is rare. Top of the rotation potential.
    So we would add prospects to the deal and take on all of Rolen's salary?
    If you have a losing record at Reds games, please stop going.

  6. #140
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    Re: Blue Jays are also taking offers for outfielder Alex Rios & third baseman Scott R

    Quote Originally Posted by RED VAN HOT View Post
    The problem is that the Reds need to subtract as well as add. Several 2 year deals that looked like bargains six months ago now weigh heavily on the payroll and roster. If the Reds don't manage to clear at least EE in a trade for Rolen, I can't see it happening. Apparently, the Jays don't want him because, like most ML teams these days, they are trying to shed payroll in favor of young talent. Even if you believed EE could hit enough to be a LF candidate, his defense alone should discourage giving this plan serious consideration. Extrapolating his throwing inaccuracy to LF means that a throw to the plate could be expected to land somewhere between first base and the left field side dugout. If you keep EE, his salary is added to what you obligate to Rolen because he won't have a place to play and the Reds will have to eat the salary or keep more deserving talent in the minors.

    Suppose the Jays would take EE on condition that the Reds also sweetened the deal with prospects. I would be willing to part with any young talent except the following players.
    Bailey..He is finally looking like a 1 or 2 starter.
    Heisey...He is a game changer. I am puzzled by the constant talk of acquiring a RH bat for the outfield. I wish Heisey were with the Reds now.
    Wood...A LHP this polished and this young is rare. Top of the rotation potential.
    Lincoln and Willy are the only two contracts I might characterize as "bad." But they really aren't for too terribly much either. See the thread I started about the 2010 payroll as evidence.
    I have a love-hate relationship with Albert Pujols. Mostly hate.

  7. #141
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    Re: Blue Jays are also taking offers for outfielder Alex Rios & third baseman Scott R

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    So you would be willing to add Alonso, Stubbs, Stewart, Frazier, Lotzkar or Soto to EE, for Rolen?
    First of all, I like all of these players. I would not want to trade any of them. Losing any of them would be painful. Of the ones you mention, I would have the toughest time parting with Stewart and Frazier. Alonso can only play first and I am yet to be convinced that he will outhit Votto. I have been in the Stubbs camp for a while, but mostly because of his defense. I am getting frustrated that his power potential is not being realized. Lotzkar may never be healthy and still has a long way to go. Soto also has a way to go. I am surprised that you did not also mention Francisco. I think he has a higher ceiling than Soto. I suspect that the Jays would want him.

    With regard to KoryMac5's question, I would be willing to trade EE and one prospect as long as it was not one of the three I listed. That's just me. I don't see replacements for those three elsewhere in the system. If it is true that the bonus has been paid, then the money differential is not as daunting.

    I apologize for taking this discussion down the path of discussing the relative merits of prospects.

  8. #142
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Blue Jays are also taking offers for outfielder Alex Rios & third baseman Scott R

    Quote Originally Posted by RED VAN HOT View Post
    First of all, I like all of these players. I would not want to trade any of them. Losing any of them would be painful. Of the ones you mention, I would have the toughest time parting with Stewart and Frazier. Alonso can only play first and I am yet to be convinced that he will outhit Votto. I have been in the Stubbs camp for a while, but mostly because of his defense. I am getting frustrated that his power potential is not being realized. Lotzkar may never be healthy and still has a long way to go. Soto also has a way to go. I am surprised that you did not also mention Francisco. I think he has a higher ceiling than Soto. I suspect that the Jays would want him.

    With regard to KoryMac5's question, I would be willing to trade EE and one prospect as long as it was not one of the three I listed. That's just me. I don't see replacements for those three elsewhere in the system. If it is true that the bonus has been paid, then the money differential is not as daunting.

    I apologize for taking this discussion down the path of discussing the relative merits of prospects.

    Thanks for clarifying. I was not criticizing, just asking. All good points. No need to apologize.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  9. #143
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    Re: Blue Jays are also taking offers for outfielder Alex Rios & third baseman Scott R

    Jocketty on Rolen, well, not on Rolen but you get the idea
    Posted by JohnFay at 7/10/2009 5:24 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com

    Walt Jocketty would not comment on the the Scott Rolen report from the Toronto Sun. He can't. It's tampering to talk about another team's players.

    "I'm not going to talk about any specific player," Jocketty said. "We've said all along that we're looking for a right-handed hitter. So I can see where that speculation comes from. But we're looking more for someone who can play the outfield."

    Rolen's would make nearly $6 million for the rest of this year and he'll make $11 million next year.

    The Reds had the flexibility to add Mark De Rosa's salary. Jocketty said they could still add payroll.

    "I don't think anything has changed there," Jocketty said.

    I think the only way a Reds-Rolen trade happens is if the Blue Jays are willing to take Edwin Encarnacion.

    It's pretty clear that the Reds have players that other teams are interested in. Young pitching is the No. 1 commodity in the baseball. The Reds have three rookies in their bullpen and a plenty of prospects at the Double-A level and above.

    "I've been getting a lot of calls," Jocketty said.

    Stay tuned -- 21 days until the trade deadline.

    http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs...cincinnati.com

    Please don't mortgage the future for a half year rental. This team isn't going anywhere this season. The time to make a trade was during the offseason.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  10. #144
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Blue Jays are also taking offers for outfielder Alex Rios & third baseman Scott R

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    Jocketty on Rolen, well, not on Rolen but you get the idea
    Posted by JohnFay at 7/10/2009 5:24 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com
    I think the only way a Reds-Rolen trade happens is if the Blue Jays are willing to take Edwin Encarnacion.
    I don't get this whole "willing to take Edwin Encarnacion" thing. If they can shed an expensive, injury-prone, declining 3B for a younger, cheaper one who still has upside, don't the the Jays do it every time--especially if they can dump salary and get a prospect too? The deal, at least as rumored, sounds really bad for the Reds.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

  11. #145
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    Re: Blue Jays are also taking offers for outfielder Alex Rios & third baseman Scott R

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    Please don't mortgage the future for a half year rental. This team isn't going anywhere this season. The time to make a trade was during the offseason.
    A 1.5 year rental, technically.

    I'll toss this out for consideration... the conventional wisdom says that teams Going For It trade prospects for veterans, and teams Out Of It trade veterans for prospects. But when Jocketty traded for McGwire, it was a backwards deal. The Cardinals were all but out of the race on that July 31 (51-56, 7.5 games out in third place) but he saw an opportunity in the deadline trade market to grab a cornerstone for future Cardinal teams. It wasn't a sure thing (there was no guarantee McGwire, a FA-to-be, would sign an extension) but it was a risk that turned out to be worth taking.

    It's not a given that a deal for a veteran will be all about this year. Nor am I saying Rolen is the right guy. I'm just sayin'... :
    Not all who wander are lost

  12. #146
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    Re: Blue Jays are also taking offers for outfielder Alex Rios & third baseman Scott R

    Quote Originally Posted by IslandRed View Post
    A 1.5 year rental, technically.
    Oh, I'm in favor of Rolen as long as the Reds don't have to give up a ton. But it sounds like Walt is focusing on an outfielder though. I just hope he doesn't give up the farm for a half year rental like Matt Holliday for example. I would start building for 2010. Next year's team has a chance to be very good IMO, if Walt makes some moves.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  13. #147
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    Re: Blue Jays are also taking offers for outfielder Alex Rios & third baseman Scott R

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    Oh, I'm in favor of Rolen as long as the Reds don't have to give up a ton. But it sounds like Walt is focusing on an outfielder though. I just hope he doesn't give up the farm for a half year rental like Matt Holliday for example. I would start building for 2010. Next year's team has a chance to be very good IMO, if Walt makes some moves.
    For all the talk of 'giving up the farm for Holliday', Anaheim only give up Casey Kotchman and a minor league reliever for Mark Teixeira last season. It all depends on the market.

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    Re: Blue Jays are also taking offers for outfielder Alex Rios & third baseman Scott R

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    I don't get this whole "willing to take Edwin Encarnacion" thing. If they can shed an expensive, injury-prone, declining 3B for a younger, cheaper one who still has upside, don't the the Jays do it every time--especially if they can dump salary and get a prospect too? The deal, at least as rumored, sounds really bad for the Reds.
    Our best hope with EdE was that other GM's would cross their eyes and see a 3B. They probably don't because he isn't.

  15. #149
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    Re: Blue Jays are also taking offers for outfielder Alex Rios & third baseman Scott R

    Yeah, I really don't understand the "willing to take Edwin Encarnacion" thing either. Even though he isn't hitting right now (and I have faith he will), it's not like he is expensive and is eating up payroll. The Reds shouldn't be trying to dump him at his lowest value.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

  16. #150
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    Re: Blue Jays are also taking offers for outfielder Alex Rios & third baseman Scott R

    Quote Originally Posted by RED VAN HOT View Post

    Suppose the Jays would take EE on condition that the Reds also sweetened the deal with prospects.
    Then you just don't include EE in the deal? EE is not somebody the Reds need to desperatley trying to deal. It's not like he is a clubhouse cancer or is eating up a truckload of money. This makes no sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.


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