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Thread: In Defense of Dusty, Bob and Walt

  1. #1
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    In Defense of Dusty, Bob and Walt

    I read this on John Fay's blog and thought it was interesting. I also knew it would cause some discussion on this board. It is long. While I don't believe that Dusty Bob or Walt are the greatest at what they do, I do believe that much, not all, of the criticsm that they receive from Reds' fan is over the top.

    I have had enough…

    There are 662 managers on the baseball reference manager list—662 managers all time
    On that list dusty baker is 153rd all time in winning pct.
    When that list is limited to qualifiers (320 games/roughly two seasons today) he is 87th in winning pct.—out of 291.
    Out of the same 662 managers baker is 32 all time in wins – only 31 guys in 140 years of baseball have more wins than baker.
    Baker was:
    1993 NL Manager of the Year
    1997 NL Manager of the Year
    2000 NL Manager of the Year
    He won two pennants
    His teams have finished 1st or 2nd in 9 of the seasons he’s managed
    When he broke in as a player he was 19
    He played in 2039 games in 19 years
    He has stood in the batter’s box and faced a major league pitcher in a major league game 8021 times
    He has stood in the batter’s box in a playoff game 164 times
    He batted 321, 320 and 300 in full seasons in the majors
    He won a gold glove and two silver sluggers
    He knocked in 1013 runs
    He played rf, cf, lf, 1b, and dh
    He played in 4 NLCS, 1 NLDS, and 3 WS
    He had 1981 hits in the regular season, 42 hits in the post season
    He had 242 home runs
    He had 320 2bs
    He had 23 3bs
    He stole 137 bases
    He walked 762 times
    He struck out 926 times
    He was an all star twice
    He was on a world series champion


    And on this blog—
    Everday—
    --fifty times a day—
    a poster— who’s only two qualifications are an internet connection and a keyboard—

    says he is stupid
    says he is clueless
    says he should be fired
    says he doesn’t understand baseball
    says he is a terrible manager
    says the reds will never win with him as the manager


    __________________________________________________ _________________________


    In 1980, walt jocketty was hired by Charlie finley (the the first team owner/GM to have a championship team destroyed by free agency) as the Director of Minor League Operations and Scouting for the oakland A’s. He
    led the overhaul of the minor league system—acquiring and developing the players that made up the core of the team that went to three consecutive world series’. He started with charlie finley, then worked for billy martin and sandy alderson—in ’85 he was promoted to alderson’s right hand man (Director of Baseball Administration).
    He left oakland after the third world series in 1990…
    In 1994, he was hired by the colorado rockies. He worked as the Assistant General Manager/Player Personnel that year, and the next season the rockies won the wild card.
    In late ’94 the cards signed him as their general manager
    He hired tony larussa as the cards manager
    In his time with st Louis he oversaw:
    • 6 National League Central Division championships (1996, 2000, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006)
    • two National League Championships (2004 and 2006)
    • two world series appearances
    • one World Series Championship (2006).
    • seven straight winning seasons
    • 100+ win seasons in 2004 and 2005.
    Jocketty was named the Executive of the Year in MLB twice, in 2000 and 2004.

    And after one year on the job in cincinnati—

    As usual, fifty times a day, a poster –

    --a poster with no qualifications other than a keyboard and an internet connection—

    Says:
    He is the reason the reds aren’t going to win
    That he is a failure
    That he is asleep at the switch
    That he is clueless
    That he is stupid, dumb or worse
    That he doesn’t know about economic restraints
    That he owes everything to duncan and larussa

    __________________________________________________ _________________________


    Bob Castellini has a degree from Georgetown University and an MBA from the Wharton School
    He has been a minority owner of the reds, orioles, rangers and cards…
    He has owned parts of major league baseball teams for over thirty years
    In ’06 he led a group of investors – investors with 270 mil dollars – in buying the reds…
    He increased payroll by 13 % his first year
    He increased that increased payroll by 9% the following year…
    And in the face of the worst economy since the great depression he maintained those increases by not cutting payroll

    And, of course, even after these nearly half a billion dollars (in purchase and payroll) have been spent—100+ million dollars out of his own pocket –
    Posters – many who have said they will not give one dime to this franchise—
    And with no other qualification but the ability to type—

    Rip the man for:

    Being dumb
    Being unaware
    Being cheap
    Not being committed to winning
    Supposedly lying to us
    Etc, etc…

    __________________________________________________ _________________________

    These men have been burned in cyber effigy on this blog everyday…
    They have had their motives questioned
    Their integrity has been challenged
    They have been called stupid, and worse
    And they have been made the villains in a fantasy world of this blog’s creation


    And these men—
    These men who have committed a combined 100 years+ to major league baseball—
    These men who’s character is not questioned anywhere but on this blog—
    These top of their field professionals—

    Are entirely disrespected each day—fifty times a day—

    By a herd of guys who’s sum total of qualifications, all combined, add up to:
    zero years of major league experience
    zero years of minor league experience
    very little common sense
    a keyboard
    and an internet connection…
    factually, they have only one skill relevant to this exchange—the ability to type…

    And after watching this phenomenon over the last 10 months, there are two things I know to be true:

    Baker, jocketty and castellini are men of character and achievement

    The blog is usually wrong

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  3. #2
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    Re: In Defense of Dusty, Bob and Walt

    Well, that explains why Fay won't question Dusty's lineups, I guess.

    I lived in San Francisco and went to those Giants games. Dusty did not deserve to be Manager of the year during any of those years. It was a joke.

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    Re: In Defense of Dusty, Bob and Walt

    ...and yes. The REDS will not win with him as a Manager.

    Next year, we'll have so much talent on the team that it's possible we win in spite of him.

    Any Manager should be able to take the 2010 REDS to the playoffs.

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    Re: In Defense of Dusty, Bob and Walt

    the reason that whole list is invalid concerning dusty, is all the veteran bolstered clubs he had. he didnt win manager of the year because he deserved it. ask cubs fans if fay knows what hes talking about. this whole corey patterson and willy taveras experiment that is now taking place, after having to go through most the season last year with patterson at lead off is more than enough to disqualify that stuff listed. and whats the point of listing dustys stats as a player? pointless they mean nothing.

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    Re: In Defense of Dusty, Bob and Walt

    I don't think Dusty is a bad manager per se. Just bad for THIS team. Why need a young, energetic get in your face type manager to pump up a mostly young team here. If he was with a veteran laden team who need more of a hands of rah rah managers, and with little difference in the lineup makeup, then sure. I think he would be fine. There's plenty of situations where an experienced vet sometimes gets stuck behind the 8 ball and support was dropped. Dusty is the type to build them up and keep them going.

    For as young and as small market as this team is though, I don't think he's the manager for us. If he was on a talent laden team and keeping a slumping, but proven hitter in the lineup, that may pay dividends. But here, when we have Wily freakin' Taveras in the lineup and he treats him like Bernie Williams or something - HUGE difference.

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    Re: In Defense of Dusty, Bob and Walt

    The bottom line in sports is"what have you done for me lately".I'll add to that by saying that not a single one of those accomplishments has helped the Reds one bit.So can someone explain to me why I should care about them.

    If anyone decides to take the time to do that maybe you can explain to me the point of this thread as well.Thank you in advance.

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    Re: In Defense of Dusty, Bob and Walt

    I'm curious as to why so many Reds fans don't think Bob is doing a good job after having Uncle Carl Brown.

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    Re: In Defense of Dusty, Bob and Walt

    Quote Originally Posted by DTCromer View Post
    I'm curious as to why so many Reds fans don't think Bob is doing a good job after having Uncle Carl Brown.
    Great question. The only thing I can figure, as a non-Cincinnattian, is that people gave the the Banana Man a pass because he gave a few bucks to local charities. In the meantime he was taking all that revenue sharing money and handing it out to Columbian terrorists. This organization is still trying to clean up the mess he left behind.

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    Re: In Defense of Dusty, Bob and Walt

    If we can't blame Dusty, Jocketty, or Castellini for all the Reds problems over the last 9 years then who are we supposed to blame? Somebody must be at fault so we can justify our loyalty to a such a team

  11. #10
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    Re: In Defense of Dusty, Bob and Walt

    I'm really only talking about Dusty.As far as Walt goes I can put but with someone making bad decisions when it takes the outcome to prove its a bad decision.Walt has a very hard job to do and has only been at it for just over a year.He imo still gets a pass.With Dusty, his bad decisions can be seen a mile away before he even makes them.Most of the time your average fan would know better but he will choose to make the decision anyway.That's not excusable.

    By the way.I have been very critical of Dusty in the redszone.I have even suggested once or twice that the Reds should consider getting rid of him.But I have never once called him stupid or questioned what kind of man he is.I don't agree with how he manages the team.I probably couldn't do any better and yes I'm just a fan,but that by no means makes it imposible to see that how Dusty does things just don't work unless he has a future juiced up hall of famer/best of all time kind of player or a team built on a 120 million dollar payroll.Dusty's time here will come to a end.Maybe sooner then later and maybe not,but when he is gone I'll wish him well but be glad he is gone.We will never win with him.
    Last edited by Captain Hook; 07-09-2009 at 11:12 PM.

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    Re: In Defense of Dusty, Bob and Walt

    who cares what he did as a player? in fact, who cares what he has done as a manager before he came here? we all question his decisions and lineups because he makes bogus decisions and lineups. he is not .500 here and until he gets us into the playoffs we have a right to question his abilities as a manager

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    Re: In Defense of Dusty, Bob and Walt

    Don't forget who pays all 3 of the guys that you mentioned.
    2010 Mock Draft Selections (picking for Rays)

    Bryce Brentz
    Brandon Workman
    Kris Bryant
    Matt Lipka
    Rick Hague

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    Re: In Defense of Dusty, Bob and Walt

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyerFanatic View Post
    the reason that whole list is invalid concerning dusty, is all the veteran bolstered clubs he had. he didnt win manager of the year because he deserved it. ask cubs fans if fay knows what hes talking about. this whole corey patterson and willy taveras experiment that is now taking place, after having to go through most the season last year with patterson at lead off is more than enough to disqualify that stuff listed. and whats the point of listing dustys stats as a player? pointless they mean nothing.
    So if I read you right, his accomplishments are pure luck. And if I read others right we cant win with him but if we do it will be pure luck also. I think Dusty should start buying lottery tickets, must be the luckiest man alive. I can't wait til the Reds hire that manager who wins with bad players. Let me think of who that could be Sparky, La Russa, Torre, Leyland, Pinella oh yeah I guess it might take good players for everyone to win, but that Dusty is one lucky son of a gun.

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    Re: In Defense of Dusty, Bob and Walt

    As an owner I think bob is doing pretty well.

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    Re: In Defense of Dusty, Bob and Walt

    Quote Originally Posted by kfm View Post
    So if I read you right, his accomplishments are pure luck. And if I read others right we cant win with him but if we do it will be pure luck also. I think Dusty should start buying lottery tickets, must be the luckiest man alive. I can't wait til the Reds hire that manager who wins with bad players. Let me think of who that could be Sparky, La Russa, Torre, Leyland, Pinella oh yeah I guess it might take good players for everyone to win, but that Dusty is one lucky son of a gun.
    his accomplishments dont mean jack in the sense how does him playing in so many games, hitting in so many games, etc..etc equate to being a good manager? how does him breaking into the majors at 19 make him a better manager? its just useless knowledge, it doesnt help to support hes a great manager.

    if anything, why didnt fay include his record last season, and also how many games patterson lead off for dusty last season? i mean i guess dusty just knows what hes doing so well that he hasnt had a winning season with the reds and is currently 2 games under .500 this season. but you know, he broke into the majors at 19, that must count for something!


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