i love how you called out this post, and instead of replying to what is wrong in the post with the correct information you just blasted the post.Originally Posted by kfm
i love how you called out this post, and instead of replying to what is wrong in the post with the correct information you just blasted the post.
I have yet to see one post that supports the title of this thread.
Name one thing that Baker has done that has made this team better than they were projected to be with or without Baker. Their record is exactly where it's supposed to be based on Pythagorean numbers, so where has he helped them?
Don't give me any excuses about injuries to Volquez, EE and Votto. They were small injuries for short periods of the season, except for EE. Every team has had the same amount of injuries, if not much worse, and everyone will get them every season. It's to be expected.
There just isn't any reason to give Baker any more support. I'm still waiting for that one post that supports that there is.
Name something in the post that isn't true. As far as the Bruce situation don't claim that I am misrepresenting the facts by saying it doesn't make any sense. THAT IS MY ENTIRE POINT. Baker's moves don't make sense. (I could be wrong here, but wasn't Bruce only called up after Hopper went down. Is Hopper a better player than Bruce?)
Furthurmore, I truly believe that Baker got Jockerty to hire Taveras that same way he got K to hire Patterson. He told him he had to have him and that he could make him better. General Managers usually try to respond positively to a manager's request.
I think you can read it and figure out exactly what I am talking about, but since you are unwilling to do that I will name just a few and repeat some that were in my original response that somehow you were unable to ascertain. I would also like to add that I hope in the future you will ask just as much from people who share your point of view as you do for those who don't. I will eagerly look for such a post from you.
His first set of three I don't have any problem with. I have not researched this but I am assuming, and maybe I should not, that this is actually factual. Although regarding point #3 Rick Pitino was so missed in Kentucky that his team won the national championship the year after he left and Red Auerbach was so missed in Boston that his team won two championships after he left.
Let's move to his presently points.
1. It was Dusty and Dusty's decison alone not to bring Jay Bruce to the bigs after his scorching spring training last year. Does he have any proof that his organization, unlike every other allows the manager and the manager alone to decide who is ready for the big leagues. If this is the case, then it must have been Dusty's decision to bring Bruce up as well right?
2. Where is the general manager. Here he decides it was once again Dusty and Dusty's decision alone to carry three catchers and to make sure Hanigan was not one of them. Once again where is the proof of this and if it was Dusty's decision wasn't Dusty the manager/general manager's decision to bring him up?
3. This is very interesting. Apparently the rest of the organization wanted DIckerson called up and starting before they got rid of Dunn and Griffey. At that point the starting outfield was Dunn, Griffey and Bruce. Who exactly did the rest of the organization want benched so that Dickerson could be called up and play. I presume that they would not want to call up a young player to have him sit on the bench so they must of wanted one of the other three benched so that Dickerson could play. Once again not a shred of proof that this happened, but it passes as fact because it is a critiscm of the great red satan.
4. Now this is probably an accurate statement of the reds bullpen rotation and I am not sure why this is a criticism. Weathers, Rhoades and Cordero have pitched very well for the Reds and I don't undertand how pitching your best relievers in the most crucial spots is a criticism, unless you care more about date of birth than production. Why is it a criticism that if Bray, who is a young pitcher himself, was not injured than Herrera would not have been on the team? Please explain how this prooves anything so if this young pitcher were healthy, this even younger pitcher would not have been on the team is proof that you don't like young players.
5. I named this one specifically, in my previous post but where is there any proof that Walt did not want Wily Tavares on the team. There is not one shread of evidence to support this other than gee I think I like Walt and I know I hate Dusty so let me blame this one on Dusty. Is walt the long time friend of Bob the general manager or is he not the general manager?
6. I also mentioned this one in my earlier post but Bruce who Dusty did not want on the team does not want to play bruce because he is young, but now he chooses not to bench bruce because he is stubborn. What. I thought your point was he does not like young players so when he sticks with a young player he is stubborn. And if he is going to be dumb enough to play this young player that he does not really want to play he should platoon him. The guy who won minor league player on the year and is supposed to be one of the pillars on the comeback of the reds should platoon now. I'm sure this would have set very well with you.
7. This could be very accurate and they may not win under Dusty. The statement I have a problem with is that Jocketty would have warned against Dusty. Again, this is mere speculation passed as fact and Walt will be alright. Almost everything in this post are attacks at Walt Jockety. Either he is a weakling who has no standing in the eyes of the owner, or he is the one making the decisions with input from others in the organization, or he and Dusty are on the exact same page. I don't pretend to know which one it is, but none of these show Walt in a good light.
The purpose of the thread was to share the point of view of someone who does not share the point of view of many on this board. It was just to make people think not to convince them of a particular point of view. Perhaps I was being naive in that regard. Having said that I do take issue with your staments that volquez and Votto have only missed short periods of time. I believe they have both missed around 30 games. Granted for Volquez that is only about 6 to 7 starts. Missing Votto devestated this team. Not to say that such an injury would not hurt other teams, but when you are as thin as the reds and have such a small margin for error missing your best player for a month is not an easy thing to get by. Also, I have not researched this but it sounds like you have so can you name the teams who have outperformed precisely where their numbers say they would be. Are you arguing that these are good managers, or are they too just lucky. Finally, if the Reds are right where they should be, doesn't that hurt your argument that Dusty consistently causes them to lose. Shouldn't they be underperforming where the stats say they should be? Let me make this abundantly clear, I am not a supporter of Dusty Baker. I know that on a board where it seems everyone hates Dusty and blames him after a good number of losses, that a person who does not do that and does not hate DUsty must appear to the Dusty haters as his biggest fan. However, what I am truly not a fan of is the over the top ad nauseum attacks that are not supported by any facts and in many cases simply ignore facts. It doesn't matter if you are talking about Dusty or Homer or Edwin or Joey all of whom I have defended on this board. I am not a fan of it and I will never be even if it makes me unpopular or unknowing to some people. Quite frankly, I could care less.
Man oh man, this is so easy.
Red Auerbach retired. He wasn't dismissed because the owner didn't like him.
I may be wrong, but didn't Pitino leave Kentucky for Louisville, something Wildcat fans still haven't forgiven him for?
It is true that no one was clamoring for Dickerson's call-up. He was called up because the Reds needed an outfielder and he did well. Then Dusty wanted Taveras. So Jockerty went and got him.
Dusty also wanted Bako because Bako had played for him before. Ross was under contract and maybe Valentin was too so Hanigan was the man out.
Time and time again Dusty belittled Herrera's performance in Spring training saying that it was only a matter of time before hitters figured him out. (Dusty may be right on this one. Time will tell as the season wears on.)
The Bruce situation is what it is. It doesn't make sense. Proves my point.
But Dusty doesn't like rookies. The reason Bruce, Bako, played and Bray would have is that they had time on the big club. Dusty will not play a rookie unless he has to.
I never said Jockerty didn't like Taveras. He would have been a fool to get him if he did. I don't have proof, but judging from the Bako, Patterson deals the year before I think Dusty ask for him and Jockerty complied. If Taveras doesn't improve dramatically, it will be one of the reasons Baker is fired.
I also believe it is the manager's final say on who makes the roster coming out of Spring training. The GM puts the pool of players on the table, but the manager has the final say unless it is a high contract player. In the case of Stanton Dusty was probably right to have him dismissed.
As far as the influence Baker has and hasn't had with some of the off field decisions there is little proof that can be thrown out there.But hear are a few of my opinions and ideas of how some of the things being discussed and a couple other things went down.
1.CP was brought here because Dusty wanted him.Krivsky I believe gave in and granted his newly hired manager the piece of the puzzle that Baker felt he needed.I don't believe this is a fact but I'm pretty sure this is what happened.
2.CP was sent down by the newly appointed GM Walt Jocketty because of performance related issue's.I don't believe Baker had a say in this because CP was still starting most of the time.CP's demotion was followed by Bruce's call up.
3.Its hard to say if it was Dusty's intention or if he was told to play Bruce every night.I believe that considering how Bruce was hitting in AAA at the time he was brought up to play every night.Since I believe that it was Jocketty decision to bring him up I also believe that it was his decision that Bruce plays.
4.While I do blame Jocketty for the Taveras signing I believe that Baker had his hand in it as well.It certainly wasn't Baker's call but he was happy as a pig in you know what.
5.I believe that Walt is at this point allowing Dusty to hang himself.Jocketty didn't hire Dusty and I can't believe he wants him as his coach.Sure, Jocketty signed Taveras but it isn't his job to make the lineup out every night.I'm pretty sure that Castelline had a big part in hiring Baker and I'm sure Walt would like to show the boss that he is giving Dusty everything he wants to manage this team within the budget that Bob sets.I imagine this off season Walt will make his case to Bob and we will be free of Baker.Of course this is complete speculation.
I really think that we will be looking at a very different team next season.Aside from the pitching we will have a new starting C,SS,3B,CF,LF and possibly more.Some of the pitching might even be moved.Basically if there is a thread anything like this next year Baker will be long gone and Jocketty will be the new whipping boy.
Last edited by Captain Hook; 07-14-2009 at 12:42 AM.
In defense of Walt, he didnt hire Dusty.
In defense of Dusty roids arent very popular anymore
not picking sides here, but threads like this smoke the sterile threads on ORG and I am glad to be here participating.
Thank you all, gents, I love you all in that "man, slap you hard on the back, but we still want to bone the same hottie redhead" kind of way...
Go Reds!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqO1b-5RsAs&NR=1
Last edited by Fon Duc Tow; 07-14-2009 at 03:04 AM.
bJust to clarify, Pitino came to Louisville only after he went to the Boston Celtics and if I'm not mistaken, Bako and Patterson were signed by Wayne Krivsky, Jocketty didn't take over until the season had already started. Blame Dusty if you want for Bako and Patterson, but Krivsky signed them and not Jocketty. Of course, I'm sure Dusty told Krivsky to sign Patterson for 3.5 million.
Every Manager, Coach, and Head Coach, from MLB, the NBA, and the NFL has some decision-making power as to who gets added to the team. It varies from team-to-team the percentage of those players who are added, but with every team, that Manager, Coach, or Head Coach is in on the decision-making process, and his input is considered valuable. Again, how many of those decision-making processes vary from team to team that he's involved with. But, I guarantee you that the prima-donna Baker has a huge say in these decision-making processes and that his opinion is valued very, very highly by Castellini. Castellini has said so, as much, when he hired him, what he thought of Baker.
That might be on the g.m., but I would guess that Dusty screwed up the negotiations by calling Patterson and telling him that he's going to "add him", "wants him", whatever. Knowing this, Patterson could ask for a bigger contract, as Krivsky had no leverage.
Dusty can not be defended at this point, he has to go. Along with the rest of the coaching staff.
From the Cincy Enquirer, Could it be that Jockety actually is the GM of this team:
As far as bringing up Drew Stubbs from Louisville, general manager Walt Jocketty said he didn’t want to rush the outfielder to the major leagues.
“I saw him play three games last week,” Jocketty said. “I saw that all-star game last night. He’s getting closer. You don’t want to rush a guy. Wait until our people think he’s ready.
“He’s only played Triple-A for three months.”
Jocketty said Stubbs is working on some things, and Triple-A is the place to do that.
“There’s enough pressure in the big leagues,” Jocketty said. “The worst thing you can do is bring a guy here (too soon). There are certain things he is working on. I’m not going to say what they are; that’s his business. But if you bring a guy up when he’s not ready, they’ll exploit his weaknesses. It’s a lot tougher here than in Triple-A.”
There's no defense of Dusty anymore than there was no defense of Hitler.
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