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Thread: Catcher Defense is only measurable by the eye when you're at the game, but...

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    Catcher Defense is only measurable by the eye when you're at the game, but...

    ...the evidence just keeps piling up.

    Since Votto came back June 23rd and Hernandez went back to full-time catching, here are the results:

    In 10 more starts, Hernandez has 9 more losses.

    When Hernandez starts:

    REDS record: 5Wins-10Losses

    Average runs given up when Hernandez catches: 5.93 per game
    Less the one bad game against the Phils of 16 runs: 5.21 per game

    When Hanigan starts:

    REDS record 4Wins-1Losses

    Average runs given up when Hanigan catches: 3.00 per game
    Less the one bad game that Arroyo imploded of 10 runs: 1.25 per game

    You can ignore it all you want, but the entire pitching staff does not work well with Hernandez since he took over full-time duties again, and Hanigan does exceptionally. He even got Arroyo's 2nd career shutout.

    But, Dusty makes these decisions, and Dusty, like last season, is perfectly OK to go down with a sinking ship. He still gets paid the same. I can't stand Dusty Baker. Have always disliked the guy personally and how he manages a team.

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    Re: Catcher Defense is only measurable by the eye when you're at the game, but...

    10 games seems way too small a sample size to accurately use, what's Hernandez's history with pitching staffs?

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    Re: Catcher Defense is only measurable by the eye when you're at the game, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by MJA View Post
    10 games seems way too small a sample size to accurately use, what's Hernandez's history with pitching staffs?
    But, that's 20 games, not 10 games.

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    Re: Catcher Defense is only measurable by the eye when you're at the game, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by MJA View Post
    10 games seems way too small a sample size to accurately use, what's Hernandez's history with pitching staffs?
    Everything was fine when Hanigan was catching while Votto was out, then all of a sudden, things changed "dramatically", as noted above. I'm not interested in the past. What's done is done. I'm really interested in what's going on right now. I have a hard time believing that an entire pitching staff can go belly up, and only do it on the days that Hernandez starts (5.21 runs per start on 14 of 15 starts), and then pitch lights out on the days that Hanigan starts (1.25 runs per start for 4 of 5 starts).

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    Re: Catcher Defense is only measurable by the eye when you're at the game, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    But, that's 20 games, not 10 games.
    Sorry I misread that, I still want to see a couple more games.

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    Re: Catcher Defense is only measurable by the eye when you're at the game, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by MJA View Post
    Sorry I misread that, I still want to see a couple more games.
    I know it's not a lot, but at what point during a season do you say to yourself that something isn't working, especially when it has such a defining date, such as Votto's return forcing Hernandez to go back behind the plate 6 days a week instead of 1 day a week, which is what it was while Votto was injured.

    Maybe Hernandez is tired. Maybe he's lazy mentally or physically. Maybe he's stupid. Whatever it is, it ain't working. It's been nothing short of a disaster going on 20 games (15 for Hernandez and 5 for Hanigan). But to go 4-1 for Ryan and 5-10 for Ramon...well, I don't need to watch 1 more games of that. You'll get 2-0 for Ryan and 3-6 for Ramon, and the REDS will be 8-10 games back of St. Louis, San Francisco, Colorado, and Philadelphia, and 3-5 games back of Florida, Houston, Chicago and Milwaukie.

    The season's probably already over, so it doesn't matter.

    Dusty will keep getting paid, the fans won't show up to the games, and Castellini will not understand that his "buddy", Baker is the problem, unless Walt says it to his face at the risk of alienating his relationship with Baker.

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    Re: Catcher Defense is only measurable by the eye when you're at the game, but...

    Are you REALLY putting the pitcher's success, and the teams runs allowed, solely on the catcher?!?!?

    SERIOUSLY?!?!?!

    No consideration of opponent, schedule, defense, just who the pitcher had to shake the signs off from?

    Wow, you are stretching. Is your All-Star break REALLY that boring?

    PEACE

    -BLEEDS
    I think that in a year or two, one of these guys - Frazier, Dorn, Valaika, Cumberland, Stubbs - will be ready to replace Dunn. They won't hit as many home runs as Dunn, but they should have similar OPS. - 757690, July 22, 2008

    Alonso will be playing 1B for the REDS and batting 4th one year from today. - Kingspoint, July 9, 2009

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    Re: Catcher Defense is only measurable by the eye when you're at the game, but...

    Hanigan should be in the lineup, but he is not in the lineup because Hernandez is the vet.

    I mean, Hanigan had the R.O.Y. locked up. Now he is rotting on the bench.

    I don't think Hernandez is solely responsible for the pitching woes of late but it is a curious statistic I'll give you that.

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    Re: Catcher Defense is only measurable by the eye when you're at the game, but...

    I certainly think that there is something to this.

    1.If you had two SS and one was better on defense I'm sure you would see the same difference in how the pitchers do.It might even be worth checking out who else is playing when Hannigan plays.Who knows maybe Dusty wakes up smart once or twice a week and those are the days he starts Hannigan.I'd guess that he plays the best possible line up across the board on those days.

    2.For those who believe chemistry plays a big part in a team I think that you would have to agree that a pitcher being more comfortable with their catcher can somehow help them.I don't know how much I believe this myself but I do know that some people do work better together then they would with someone else.

    3.I'll support any idea that would get Hannigan's .338 avg and .448 obp in the line up every day.

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    Re: Catcher Defense is only measurable by the eye when you're at the game, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by BLEEDS View Post
    Are you REALLY putting the pitcher's success, and the teams runs allowed, solely on the catcher?!?!?

    SERIOUSLY?!?!?!

    No consideration of opponent, schedule, defense, just who the pitcher had to shake the signs off from?

    Wow, you are stretching. Is your All-Star break REALLY that boring?

    PEACE

    -BLEEDS
    Please explain then why there's a dramatic difference between when Hanigan starts and when Hernandez starts over the last 20 games. Until you come up with something better....

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    Re: Catcher Defense is only measurable by the eye when you're at the game, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hook View Post
    I certainly think that there is something to this.

    1.If you had two SS and one was better on defense I'm sure you would see the same difference in how the pitchers do.It might even be worth checking out who else is playing when Hannigan plays.Who knows maybe Dusty wakes up smart once or twice a week and those are the days he starts Hannigan.I'd guess that he plays the best possible line up across the board on those days.

    2.For those who believe chemistry plays a big part in a team I think that you would have to agree that a pitcher being more comfortable with their catcher can somehow help them.I don't know how much I believe this myself but I do know that some people do work better together then they would with someone else.

    3.I'll support any idea that would get Hannigan's .338 avg and .448 obp in the line up every day.

    A Seattle starting pitcher just got sent to the minors a couple of days ago when he answered Don Wakamatsu's question, "Why didn't you throw any Curveballs?" He said, "Because none were called".

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    Re: Catcher Defense is only measurable by the eye when you're at the game, but...

    Many people obviously don't know much about Catchers. It's hard to understand unless you've been a catcher for any length of time, I guess. A catcher has a lot of influence on a pitcher.

    Since I can't tell you something that you have to experience first-hand to understand, read these statements from this week and it will give you a small idea of the dynamics that are involved between the results on the field and the input that a catcher has with a pitcher.

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...send_brandon.h

    There's an audio clip in there, and I've tried to link it here:

    http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.co...morrow0710.mp3

    20 games, by the way, is a lot of games. It's not a small sample. What was your record in High-School? What did you play? 30 games maybe? You think by 2/3rd's of the season that everyone knew everything about everyone by then? Nobody went around saying. "Hey, Coach, we've only played 20 games. You're looking at a small sample." He'd look at you like you were an idiot if you said that.

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    Re: Catcher Defense is only measurable by the eye when you're at the game, but...

    Tonight was a little bit more evidence for anyone skeptical of this possibility.Too bad we'll have to wait another week before we can get some more Hannigan stats to add to the sample size.I also suppose that being on base 2 times tonight will bring his obp down so he will have to sit for another week.I'm sure a few people will still say that it is a joke that I would suggest he should play more the Hernandez.When did Dusty learn to brainwash you folks?
    Last edited by Captain Hook; 07-18-2009 at 04:34 AM.

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    Re: Catcher Defense is only measurable by the eye when you're at the game, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hook View Post
    Tonight was a little bit more evidence for anyone skeptical of this possibility.Too bad we'll have to wait another week before we can get some more Hannigan stats to add to the sample size.I also suppose that being on base 2 times tonight will bring his obp down so he will have to sit for another week.I'm sure a few people will still say that it is a joke that I would suggest he should play more the Hernandez.When did Dusty learn to brainwash you folks?
    30 more games wouldn't narrow enough the wide chasm of differencen between Hanigan's starts and Hernandez' starts....5-1 vs 5-11. And, Hanigan is forced to catch only Arroyo lately. It's nothing short of a miracle how that has turned Arroyo around.

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    Re: Catcher Defense is only measurable by the eye when you're at the game, but...

    Cather ERA
    Hanigan 4.0
    Hernandez 4.49


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