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View Poll Results: Stubbs or Heisey

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  • Keep Heisey and trade Stubbs

    46 29.87%
  • Keep Stubbs and trade Heisey

    22 14.29%
  • Keep both & move Heisey to RF or LF

    82 53.25%
  • Trade both & use Dickerson in CF

    4 2.60%
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Thread: Vote: Stubbs or Heisey

  1. #31
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: Vote: Stubbs or Heisey

    Quote Originally Posted by thorn View Post
    Keep both, move Frazier to 3B, if you have to trade anyone, look at Alonso and EE. Depth is never a bad thing, I would rather have 12 guys on a team capable of starting and pushing each other than 8 starters and 4 you hope don't play enough to hurt the team.
    the future Reds could look something like that:
    1B Votto
    2B Phillips
    SS Player acquired by trading Alonso
    3B EE in 2010 with Frazier taking over in 2011
    RF Bruce
    CF Stubbs/Dickerson
    LF Heisey/Dickerson
    C Hanigan
    .

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  3. #32
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Vote: Stubbs or Heisey

    Quote Originally Posted by Will M View Post
    the future Reds could look something like that:
    1B Votto
    2B Phillips
    SS Player acquired by trading Alonso
    3B EE in 2010 with Frazier taking over in 2011
    RF Bruce
    CF Stubbs/Dickerson
    LF Heisey/Dickerson
    C Hanigan
    The lack of respect that Zack Cozart gets around here is crazy. I honestly have him in the same conversation with Heisey and Stubbs right now when ranking the Reds 4-6 prospects.

  4. #33
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: Vote: Stubbs or Heisey

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    The lack of respect that Zack Cozart gets around here is crazy. I honestly have him in the same conversation with Heisey and Stubbs right now when ranking the Reds 4-6 prospects.
    i too like Cozart. if he was one level ahead of where he is we could pencil him in at SS for 2010. however i would expect him to play in AAA next year.
    the problem is we have a big hole at SS for the rest of this year and next.

    Doug, you know a lot about the Reds prospects. what do you think his ETA is for the major league team?
    .

  5. #34
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Vote: Stubbs or Heisey

    Quote Originally Posted by Will M View Post
    i too like Cozart. if he was one level ahead of where he is we could pencil him in at SS for 2010. however i would expect him to play in AAA next year.
    the problem is we have a big hole at SS for the rest of this year and next.

    Doug, you know a lot about the Reds prospects. what do you think his ETA is for the major league team?
    Seems pretty short sighted to trade Alonso for a SS if we have an in house option hitting well at the AA level. The Reds are going nowhere this year so the fact that we have a hole at SS in 2009 means very little. As for 2010, if its down to an Alex Gonzalez type (past his prime 'defensive' minded SS who isn't all that great defensively and who can't be counted on offensively) and Cozart, I would absolutely 100% go with Cozart. I think his ETA is really going to depend on things that we simply can't know. I think he should get a call to AAA in August and if he performs well there, Cincinnati in September for a taste. Ideally that could put him on track for 2010 in April if he performs. However that doesn't mean the Reds are going to do it that way.

  6. #35
    Member redsfandan's Avatar
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    Re: Vote: Stubbs or Heisey

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    We don't need to trade one to trade one, but this team has other problems that do need to be addressed in the trade market. There just aren't guys in the pipeline for certain areas and the team is going to need to aquire some one. They can't really afford free agents that can help much, so if there is no trade from areas of depth, how does the team go about acquiring what it needs?

    Stubbs/Heisey along with Valaika/Frazier, Francisco/Soto and a few of the young pitchers are the depth areas that this team needs to draw on to improve the major league team.
    We need a shortstop and ideally a leftfielder. Those are the only problems I see that need to be addressed. I'm just not sure there's a true shortstop that's available and worth Alonso. I want to see how Cozart does the rest of the year. If he's ready to help split the job between him and Janish or an ok FA. A Cozart that's ready and a good FA bat for left (and a trade of Arroyo) and I'm happy.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

  7. #36
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    Re: Vote: Stubbs or Heisey

    Personally, I don't think we should go after any FA for the forseeable future, I'd rather trade surplus prospects and veterans who perfrom at an "Average" pace but get paid for much more, for position of need prospects, namely pitching. I don't think we can have too many pitchers of quality, either in the majors or minors. Players like Harang, Aroyo, EE were "Good Enough" at one time, now not so much, we should be replacing them in hopes of finding the next "Votto", players who are great no matter the price. With a well stacked minors "Good Enough" players are just not good enough anymore.

    p.s. I agree with Doug about Cozart. Besides, with Valika, Sutton and Janish, we can "Hold" the position down next year if need be.
    Last edited by thorn; 07-15-2009 at 08:43 PM.

  8. #37
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Vote: Stubbs or Heisey

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    The lack of respect that Zack Cozart gets around here is crazy. I honestly have him in the same conversation with Heisey and Stubbs right now when ranking the Reds 4-6 prospects.
    I don't think it's a lack of respect but more a thought of let's not pin our SS hopes on just 1 guy who "might" be able to get the job done anytime in the so-so distant future. Frankly I'm getting extremely tired of waiting for every position to be filled via the minors before we get serious about competing, let's get serious about competing and yesterday. What if Cozart doesn't pan out, or maybe just has an unfortunate accident in the near future that keeps him out for an extended period of time? Do we just sit on the timetable like we keep doing with everyone else or do we make another move to fill the position?

    The Reds F.O. needs to make a concerted effort and extremely soon to make this roster one that can compete very soon, this has been old.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

  9. #38
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Vote: Stubbs or Heisey

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    I don't think it's a lack of respect but more a thought of let's not pin our SS hopes on just 1 guy who "might" be able to get the job done anytime in the so-so distant future. Frankly I'm getting extremely tired of waiting for every position to be filled via the minors before we get serious about competing, let's get serious about competing and yesterday. What if Cozart doesn't pan out, or maybe just has an unfortunate accident in the near future that keeps him out for an extended period of time? Do we just sit on the timetable like we keep doing with everyone else or do we make another move to fill the position?

    The Reds F.O. needs to make a concerted effort and extremely soon to make this roster one that can compete very soon, this has been old.
    If the Reds want to go out and get a legit SS of MLB caliber, then lets go for it. However if the Reds are going to go out and spend 5 million per year on another questionable shortstop, then what is the point?

    Now as for Cozart and maybe being an answer... well thats just chance the Reds are going to have to take if they aren't willing to spend 10 million a year on a shortstop and well, the odds aren't good that they are going to be doing that anytime soon. Cozart has shown at a relatively high level in the minors that he has strong plate discipline, no glaring offensive weakness and that he is a good glove man.

  10. #39
    Member redsfandan's Avatar
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    Re: Vote: Stubbs or Heisey

    Quote Originally Posted by thorn View Post
    Personally, I don't think we should go after any FA for the forseeable future, I'd rather trade surplus prospects and veterans who perfrom at an "Average" pace but get paid for much more, for position of need prospects, namely pitching. I don't think we can have too many pitchers of quality, either in the majors or minors. Players like Harang, Aroyo, EE were "Good Enough" at one time, now not so much, we should be replacing them in hopes of finding the next "Votto", players who are great no matter the price. With a well stacked minors "Good Enough" players are just not good enough anymore.

    p.s. I agree with Doug about Cozart. Besides, with Valika, Sutton and Janish, we can "Hold" the position down next year if need be.
    If we really want to compete in 2010 we'll need at least one player that's a safe bet to help the offense and the easiest positions to do that are short and left (with Dickerson ideally in center). We could just use internal options for both spots but it's far from a given that we'd get the kind of production we need to give the offense a boost.

    All three of those players (Harang, Arroyo, & EE) are locked up though 2010 with 2011 options for Harang/Arroyo. We may be able to deal one of the pitchers but we probably can't afford to get rid of the other two just yet.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

  11. #40
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Vote: Stubbs or Heisey

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    Jason Bay was a 22nd round draft pick. He posted a .727 OPS in High-A and .743 OPS in Rookie Ball.

    Shane Victorino - 6th round pick. Posted a .748 OPS in AA, .759 overall in the minors.

    Nate McLouth - 25th round pick. .765 OPS in AAA, .794 in minors.

    Mike Lowell - 20th round pick. .651 OPS in Rookie Ball, .768 OPS in Low-A.

    I'm sure there are more. I'm just thinking of guys off the top of my head.
    Thanks! Doubt he's big enough to turn into a Bay, but a Victorino or McLouth would be nice.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  12. #41
    Senor Votto Degenerate39's Avatar
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    Re: Vote: Stubbs or Heisey

    Quote Originally Posted by Will M View Post
    the future Reds could look something like that:
    1B Votto
    2B Phillips
    SS Player acquired by trading Alonso
    3B EE in 2010 with Frazier taking over in 2011
    RF Bruce
    CF Stubbs/Dickerson
    LF Heisey/Dickerson
    C Hanigan
    I doubt Frazier is that far long away from the majors
    Most Vottomatic Player

  13. #42
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    Re: Vote: Stubbs or Heisey

    According to Cot's, these are the free agents available after this season:

    Shortstops
    Orlando Cabrera OAK
    Bobby Crosby OAK
    Adam Everett DET
    Alex Gonzalez * CIN
    Khalil Greene STL
    John McDonald TOR
    Marco Scutaro TOR
    Miguel Tejada HOU
    Jack Wilson * PIT


    Tejada can still hit, but isn't a good SS. Scutaro is having a career year. Not much else.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
    -- Leo Durocher

  14. #43
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    Re: Vote: Stubbs or Heisey

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    The lack of respect that Zack Cozart gets around here is crazy. I honestly have him in the same conversation with Heisey and Stubbs right now when ranking the Reds 4-6 prospects.
    I was wait and see on Cozart due to his bat being questioned but his production has been a surprise this year.

    I noticed he has already committed 17 errors this season at ss, compared to only 11 total last season. Any explanation for this other than a poor sample? Is he having throwing difficulties?

  15. #44
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Vote: Stubbs or Heisey

    Quote Originally Posted by Orenda View Post
    I was wait and see on Cozart due to his bat being questioned but his production has been a surprise this year.

    I noticed he has already committed 17 errors this season at ss, compared to only 11 total last season. Any explanation for this other than a poor sample? Is he having throwing difficulties?
    The field in Carolina, at best, sucks.

  16. #45
    I hate the Cubs LoganBuck's Avatar
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    Re: Vote: Stubbs or Heisey

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    Just curiously, what is the history of players who have done what Heisey has done? That is, be a mid round draft pick, play decently if uninspired for two or three seasons, then turn it on and dominate AA and/or AAA pitching.

    Who has done that before, or something like that before, and how did they end up playing in the majors?

    I am not looking for any one answer, or trying to make a point. I just have no idea and think it's a good question to ask.
    Steve Smitherman, another Futures Game participant

    http://www.thebaseballcube.com/playe...itherman.shtml
    The Sox traded Bullfrog the only player they've got for Shottenhoffen. Four-eyes Shottenhoffen a utility infielder. They've got a whole team of utility infielders.


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