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Thread: Pay to Play

  1. #1
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Pay to Play

    It struck me as I watched my favorite team go up against one of the money machines in the league that an owner of a major league franchise needs to be ready to pay to play or he should never buy the team.

    Enter Frank McCourt and suddenly the Dodgers go from being a struggling big market franchise to filling holes where their system has not produced. Their money is so stupid, of course, they can still go out and get players even when they are eating contract disasters like Jones and Schmidt. And they do have an inherent market advantage because of being the LA franchise.

    But still, before McCourt came in and started throwing some money on the table, this franchise was languishing. McCourt has complemented their farm system that is producing young and barely above average, but solid players, like Martin, Loney and Ethier, to go with blossoming stars like Kemp, with Furcal, Ramirez and Hudson.

    Now comes Bob Castellini. He buys into a stadium, modest contract obligations, and a sleeping giant baseball market. But what money has he put on the table? Payroll? Same level as at buy-in. He has invested in some stadium upgrades, but the Pirates teach us that arguably the nicest ballpark doesn't mean jack. He invested in a manager and a closer, which are arguably two positions that can be had on the cheap if you spend your money correctly in other places, like a SS and a power hitter. To his credit, he has invested a lot of money in Latin America, so lets hope that long-term investment pays off.

    But I don't think BC has paid to play yet. Sure, he has invested some long term capital improvement money, but he has not bumped up the working capital in any measurable way that I see that would allow his organization to bid on some talent at key positions where there are holes in the organization. I am growing increasingly impatient with that fact and think that he needs to pay to play in 2010 or get out of the game.

    Next year, he has young talent that looks very similar to the Dodgers, with Bruce, Votto, Phillips already in place, some rookie contribution possibilities from one or more of Stubbs, Heisey, Frazier, et al, but he is going to need at least two established players to add if the team is going to be anything but average. If there ever was an offseason to invest some cash on players, this is the one. Quit churning dollars like some two bit construction contractor, Bob, and put down some cash to get you over the top. Your franchise is languishing.

    Pay to play, buddy.

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  3. #2
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Pay to Play

    It's easier when you have projectible, big money revenue guaranteed to flow in due to your market.

  4. #3
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Pay to Play

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    It's easier when you have projectible, big money revenue guaranteed to flow in due to your market.
    You have to make your market. Reds Country didn't happen in the 70s by creating artificial limitations. Of course, that was also the last time this organization had a visionary leader. Now, we seem to have stubborn old men.

  5. #4
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Pay to Play

    If you win, the people will come. If you pretend, people will see through it.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

  6. #5
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Pay to Play

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    You have to make your market. Reds Country didn't happen in the 70s by creating artificial limitations. Of course, that was also the last time this organization had a visionary leader. Now, we seem to have stubborn old men.
    That was a much different time.

  7. #6
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Pay to Play

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    That was a much different time.
    It wasn't meant as "let's do that again," except to point out that the Reds have a vast potential fan base that they have put to sleep or sent to a distant franchise for some front-running with the current era of bad baseball.

    The little boys that learned of the Reds and grew to love the game from the BRM are now in their 40s and soon to be entering their 50s, which just so happens to be peak earning years and peak disposable income times. Invest in putting together a top notch organization that produces a winner and the same market area is up for grabs and you start filling stadiums and creating other types of revenue that let the Reds compete in the top third of payrolls instead of moaning and groaning about trying to win with a smaller payroll budget.

    The Indians have now left the territory up for grabs, why not take it?

    I imagine because of too much small thinking and moaning and groaning about the plight of the small market franchise, another ownership group will fail to put the Reds back on the baseball map.

  8. #7
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    Re: Pay to Play

    You simply can not make Cincinnati and LA an apples to apples discussion.

    If you want to have this discussion, we'll need a lot more numbers on the table. TV/cable revenue streams. Ticket sales. Sponsorships. Luxury box sales.

    Compare (contrast) all those and then say that BCast isn't spending what McCourt is.
    I have a love-hate relationship with Albert Pujols. Mostly hate.

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    Re: Pay to Play

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    That was a much different time.
    It wasn't all that different.

    Look at St. Louis. And to a lesser extent, Milwaukee.
    Go BLUE!!!

  10. #9
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Pay to Play

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    It wasn't all that different.

    Look at St. Louis. And to a lesser extent, Milwaukee.

    Both teams draw way more than the Reds do. More tickets sold = more revenue.
    The Rally Onion wants 150 fans before Opening Day.

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Rally-...24872650873160

  11. #10
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Pay to Play

    Quote Originally Posted by I(heart)Freel View Post
    You simply can not make Cincinnati and LA an apples to apples discussion.

    If you want to have this discussion, we'll need a lot more numbers on the table. TV/cable revenue streams. Ticket sales. Sponsorships. Luxury box sales.

    Compare (contrast) all those and then say that BCast isn't spending what McCourt is.
    For the record, there is no argument on the table that says BC has to spend what McCourt is.

    But, you have to make Cincinnati and LA an apples to apples discussion because they are in the same league playing for the same prize. Also, excuses like these, which I have made similar arguments myself, keep owners of franchises like Cincy off the hook to win.

    I, for one, am tired of the BS excuses. If you have a small market, do something about it. Don't sit there and bemoan that "we're not Chicago, Boston, LA, New York." We've whooped on them all before, playing by the same rules, having access to the same players, we can do it again. But, as long as we keep on getting owners and management teams who buy into the "small market" mentality, then we get more of what we already have. It appears that BC is just such an owner.
    Last edited by traderumor; 07-21-2009 at 02:58 PM.

  12. #11
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Pay to Play

    BTW, the Reds are in an era where there are no geographic limitations, yet they keep on crying "small market, small market." A Reds fan is now potentially anywhere in the world.

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    Re: Pay to Play

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    Both teams draw way more than the Reds do. More tickets sold = more revenue.
    But the markets are similar.

    More wins = more tickets sold = more revenue. It's not going to happen any other way.

    The Cardinals and the Brewers haven't always drawn way more than the Reds.
    Go BLUE!!!

  14. #13
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Pay to Play

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    Both teams draw way more than the Reds do. More tickets sold = more revenue.
    Tickets are only a fraction of what we are talking about.

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    Re: Pay to Play

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Tickets are only a fraction of what we are talking about.
    Exactly, and that's why there is no excuse for the Reds not to at least match those (St. Louis and Milwaukee) standards.
    Go BLUE!!!

  16. #15
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Pay to Play

    U.S. TV Household Estimates Designated
    Market Area (DMA) Ranked by Households

    Rank Designated Market Area (DMA) TV Households % of US
    1 New York, NY 7,433,820 6.495
    2 Los Angeles, CA 5,654,260 4.940
    3 Chicago, IL 3,492,850 3.052
    4 Philadelphia, PA 2,950,220 2.578
    5 Dallas-Ft. Worth, TX 2,489,970 2.175
    6 San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose, CA 2,476,450 2.164
    7 Boston, MA (Manchester, NH) 2,409,080 2.105
    8 Atlanta, GA 2,369,780 2.070
    9 Washington, DC (Hagerstown, MD) 2,321,610 2.028
    10 Houston, TX 2,106,210 1.840
    11 Detroit, MI 1,926,970 1.684
    12 Phoenix, AZ 1,855,930 1.622
    13 Tampa-St. Petersburg (Sarasota), FL 1,822,160 1.592
    14 Seattle-Tacoma, WA 1,819,970 1.590
    15 Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN 1,730,530 1.512
    16 Miami-Fort Lauderdale, FL 1,546,920 1.352
    17 Cleveland-Akron (Canton), OH 1,524,930 1.332
    18 Denver, CO 1,524,210 1.332
    19 Orlando-Daytona Beach-Melbourne, FL 1,466,420 1.281
    20 Sacramento-Stockton-Modesto, CA 1,399,520 1.223
    21 St. Louis, MO 1,249,820 1.092
    22 Portland, OR 1,175,100 1.027
    23 Pittsburgh, PA 1,156,460 1.010
    24 Charlotte, NC 1,122,860 0.981
    25 Indianapolis, IN 1,114,970 0.974
    26 Baltimore, MD 1,102,080 0.963
    27 Raleigh-Durham (Fayetteville), NC 1,080,680 0.944
    28 San Diego, CA 1,066,680 0.932
    29 Nashville, TN 1,016,290 0.888
    30 Hartford & New Haven, CT 1,014,990 0.887
    31 Kansas City, MO 937,970 0.819
    32 Columbus, OH 925,840 0.809
    33 Salt Lake City, UT 919,390 0.803
    34 Cincinnati, OH 915,570 0.800
    35 Milwaukee, WI 905,350 0.791


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