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Thread: BA's Untouchable Prospects

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    BA's Untouchable Prospects

    http://www.baseballamerica.com/today...09/268579.html

    No Carlos Santana. No Alcides Escobar. No Reid Brignac. No Dee Gordon. No Michael Taylor.

    All guys I think would be worth pursuing. The first three are blocked by All-Stars at the major league level. The other two have been mentioned in possible deadline deals.

    The Dodgers, Brewers and Phillies want veteran pitching (Harang, Arroyo, etc.)

    The Indians probably want impact prospects at positions other than catcher, assuming they keep VMart (Alonso? Stewart? Wood?)

    I'm not sure exactly what the Devil Rays would want, but between Bartlett, Zobrist, and Beckham, I don't think there is much room for Brignac. I'm also not sure if Brignac would be a significant upgrade over Zach Cozart, although the Reds might feel differently. He is closer to the majors than Cozart.
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    Re: BA's Untouchable Prospects

    Dee Gordon is someone you want to target? A 145 pound shortstop (regardless of what he is listed at, if he weighs more than 150 pounds I would be incredibly surprised) with no power, power projection and at 21 years old is OPSing .740 in Low A is really someone we want to target? What separates him from a guy like Miguel Rojas other than the steals?

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    Re: BA's Untouchable Prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Dee Gordon is someone you want to target? A 145 pound shortstop (regardless of what he is listed at, if he weighs more than 150 pounds I would be incredibly surprised) with no power, power projection and at 21 years old is OPSing .740 in Low A is really someone we want to target? What separates him from a guy like Miguel Rojas other than the steals?
    A career OPS that is 200 points higher.

    Rojas has looked good in the last six weeks but was anemic before that. Either way, why not stockpile a couple of guys like that and see if one of them can turn into a Jose Reyes-lite type?

    I would love to see an Arroyo/Weathers deal for Gordon/E.Martin. Sure it doesn't help much for the big club in the next year or two, but it does lighten the purse load to pursue a Matt Holliday signing. Meanwhile, Arroyo and Weathers are replaceable by guys like Bailey and Roenicke, and you're restocking the farm system with some guys with promise.
    Last edited by Benihana; 07-22-2009 at 06:10 PM.
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    Re: BA's Untouchable Prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    A career OPS that is 200 points higher.
    Career OPS based on half a season of rookie ball and then 3/4 of a season in the Midwest League? Regadless of that, who cares about their OPS. Look at their skillsets. What makes one better than the other? Rojas looks like he has a better idea at the plate. Gordon has better speed and is a better base stealer.

    I like Rojas too. Why not stockpile a couple of guys like that and see if one of them can turn into a Jose Reyes-lite type?
    Well because we have to trade talent to get a guy who profiles pretty similarly to a guy we already have at the same exact spot in their careers. Doesn't make a ton of sense to me to stockpile 'clones' at the same level in the hopes that one of them turns into a super star unless that player is already performing at a super star level and neither of those guys are.

    I would love to see an Arroyo/Weathers deal for Gordon/E.Martin, even if the Reds forked over a little bit of cash. Sure it doesn't help much for the big club in the next year or two, but it does lighten the purse load to pursue a Matt Holliday signing. Meanwhile, you're restocking the farm system with some guys with promise.
    Ethan Martin isn't being traded unless its for a stud Major Leaguer. Got that from a guy who works in scouting for the Dodgers. I would be ok with Gordon as a throw in to a deal, but Ethan Martin isn't going to be the main guy the Reds or just about anyone else are getting back.

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    Re: BA's Untouchable Prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Career OPS based on half a season of rookie ball and then 3/4 of a season in the Midwest League? Regadless of that, who cares about their OPS. Look at their skillsets. What makes one better than the other? Rojas looks like he has a better idea at the plate. Gordon has better speed and is a better base stealer.
    Doug, you love to use stats when you need 'em but talk of "skillsets" when the stats don't support your arguments. What happened to Adam Rosales being the Reds' 1B of the future?

    Well because we have to trade talent to get a guy who profiles pretty similarly to a guy we already have at the same exact spot in their careers. Doesn't make a ton of sense to me to stockpile 'clones' at the same level in the hopes that one of them turns into a super star unless that player is already performing at a super star level and neither of those guys are.
    Depends on what you'd have to give up. The Dodgers strike me as a team willing to trade off most of their minor leaguers for win-now pieces. Look at last year's Carlos Santana trade as an example. I never said I'd give up a major piece for Gordon, but I would consider moving a veteran role player with no role on the current, non-contending Reds.
    Last edited by Benihana; 07-22-2009 at 06:26 PM.
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    Re: BA's Untouchable Prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    Doug, you love to use stats when you need 'em but talk of "skillsets" when the stats don't support your arguments. What happened to Adam Rosales being the Reds' 1B of the future?
    Stats can often dictate skillsets. Outside of April, Rojas has hit every bit as well as Gordon has this year in the Midwest League. They have a pretty similar skillset.

    As for Rosales, should I really go through and dig up every instance you were wrong about something? What does Rosales have to do with either Miguel Rojas or Dee Gordon other than you wanting to suggest I am wrong?

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    Re: BA's Untouchable Prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Dee Gordon is someone you want to target? A 145 pound shortstop (regardless of what he is listed at, if he weighs more than 150 pounds I would be incredibly surprised) with no power, power projection and at 21 years old is OPSing .740 in Low A is really someone we want to target? What separates him from a guy like Miguel Rojas other than the steals?

    Looks like some of the actual professionals tend to agree with me

    http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9...ay%27s-edition
    Source: Dodgers offer could tempt Jays 1:52 p.m.

    One source with knowledge of the Blue Jays' thinking predicted that the Dodgers could "catch their attention" with an offer that included third baseman Josh Bell, shortstop Devaris Gordon and hard-throwing pitching prospects from among the group of Josh Lindblom, Ethan Martin and Nathan Eovaldi.

    Bell, 22, and Gordon, 21, are considered premium everyday players at positions where the Blue Jays don't have clear starters for the future.
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    Re: BA's Untouchable Prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    Looks like some of the actual professionals tend to agree with me

    http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9...ay%27s-edition
    Those professionals can talk up guys all they want. I have talked to Dodgers scouts and have seen the guy in person. He looks like he is trapped in a 14 year olds body, except unlike the 14 year old, he isn't going to grow out of it. If it were 1980, he could probably be a solid MLB SS. Its not though. Weighing in at 145 pounds isn't going to cut it in the major leagues.

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    Re: BA's Untouchable Prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Those professionals can talk up guys all they want. I have talked to Dodgers scouts and have seen the guy in person. He looks like he is trapped in a 14 year olds body, except unlike the 14 year old, he isn't going to grow out of it. If it were 1980, he could probably be a solid MLB SS. Its not though. Weighing in at 145 pounds isn't going to cut it in the major leagues.
    Why would Blue Jays officials be talking up Dodgers prospects? And why would Dodgers scouts talk down their own prospects? That sure makes sense.
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    Re: BA's Untouchable Prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    Why would Blue Jays officials be talking up Dodgers prospects? And why would Dodgers scouts talk down their own prospects? That sure makes sense.
    The Dodgers scouts didn't talk him down or up, they just have an opinion on him. They don't expect his bat to be much either. Defensively, the kid can glove it. Offensively, I would be surprised if he was much more than what Elvis Andrus is right now. To me, a weak hitting shortstop who profiles as a #7/8 hitter with a strong glove isn't someone who should be untouchable.

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    Re: BA's Untouchable Prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Those professionals can talk up guys all they want. I have talked to Dodgers scouts and have seen the guy in person. He looks like he is trapped in a 14 year olds body, except unlike the 14 year old, he isn't going to grow out of it. If it were 1980, he could probably be a solid MLB SS. Its not though. Weighing in at 145 pounds isn't going to cut it in the major leagues.

    IF he adds 10 lbs of lean muscle a year over the next 2-3 seasons he's now at 165-175 lbs. That is not an impossible feat to accomplish, especially for a pro athlete with access to trainers and maybe a nutritionist (plus he's in a good farm system who might hire people who have some knowledge about these things). He's not going to ever be a big guy and probably wouldn't have much power but I think that statement is pretty laughable.

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    Re: BA's Untouchable Prospects

    Can't you guys sword fight somewhere else? Seriously this has gotten stupid.
    The Sox traded Bullfrog the only player they've got for Shottenhoffen. Four-eyes Shottenhoffen a utility infielder. They've got a whole team of utility infielders.

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    Re: BA's Untouchable Prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by Orenda View Post
    IF he adds 10 lbs of lean muscle a year over the next 2-3 seasons he's now at 165-175 lbs. That is not an impossible feat to accomplish, especially for a pro athlete with access to trainers and maybe a nutritionist (plus he's in a good farm system who might hire people who have some knowledge about these things). He's not going to ever be a big guy and probably wouldn't have much power but I think that statement is pretty laughable.
    Have you seen him before? I really don't think he has room to get to 165. He has the frame of a 14 year old, but at 21, he isn't likely to get larger.

    Here are some photo's I took of him in late April this year.


    Here is a video I also took of him.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyaWfMOLYHc

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    Re: BA's Untouchable Prospects

    doesnt Brignac have some D troubles?

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    Re: BA's Untouchable Prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by GIDP View Post
    doesnt Brignac have some D troubles?
    No, he doesn't. When he was drafted his scouting report was basically 'can hit, will he be good enough defensively to stick at SS'.... now it basically reads 'can field, will he hit enough to stick in the majors as a starter'.


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