This team has accepted a culture of losing

[savafan]

I see it in just about every game I watch.

There are guys who are biding their time until they can leave via free agency (Encarnacion).

There are guys who look to pad their own stats for the sake of making their wallet fatter (Phillips).

There are guys who make their decisions based on favoritism rather than actual talent (Dusty).


Tear it down. Burn it down. Blow it down completely and rebuild.

There are too many holdover veterans who've accepted the Cincinnati culture of losing that it's going to start to carry over to the young players coming up. Once you accept losing, it's like a dog who's tasted blood or a malignant tumor in the brain, it has to be destroyed...eradicated.

Right now the only people I see on the field with any fire in them are Votto, Herrerra and Rosales. It seems like everyone else is going through the motions.

I'm not saying trade away every one, but you have to get rid of those players who have accepted losing and are comfortable with the status quo.

Dusty has to go too. He can't even instill basic fundamentals in this team. I've never seen a group of professional athletes make so many stupid mistakes on the field of play as I have with the 2009 Cincinnati Reds.

I'm tired of watching a club of guys playing ball with their friends who are fine with losing ballgames as long as they draw a paycheck. I'd rather watch a AAA team fighting for their careers than complacent millionaires.

I've grown fond of a lot of these players over the years, but I'm tired of the losing culture. If you're going to rebuild, do it all the way like Tampa Bay did. We've spent the better part of a decade attempting to half rebuild and half compete at the same time. You can't do both. It's fundamentally impossible.

And get someone in here to manage this ballclub with some fire to drive the young kids to play hard. If a guy screws up, I want to see the manager rip him in the paper the next day. He'll remember that the next time a similar situation arises.

I would take another five seasons of losing baseball to watch young guys with potential try their hardest between the white lines before I can watch another five seasons of mediocre to downright awful baseball with guys who just don't seem to care anymore.

[Falls City Beer]

Eh. When this team was pitching over their heads, they were winning. Then reality set in and the pitchers turned into the pumpkins they are.

This isn't unfixable.

[savafan]

Eh. When this team was pitching over their heads, they were winning. Then reality set in and the pitchers turned into the pumpkins they are.

This isn't unfixable.

This team has played over their heads for parts of the last 15 years

[Falls City Beer]

This team has played over their heads for parts of the last 15 years

And it's always been the pitching that's the mirage.

[BCubb2003]

Blow it up, Walt. Make it yours.

[RFS62]

Blow it up, Walt. Make it yours.

Catchy phrase.

[Unassisted]

Blow it up, Walt. Make it yours.

I get the distinct impression from the big "Walt" thread that there are many RedsZoners who don't trust Walt to use enough dynamite for such an operation.

[MikeS21]

The problem is that every "tear down and rebuild" cycle sets the franchise back another three or four years. I think we are closer than that.

There are some obvious adjustments that need to be made with the line-up, but they can be addressed IF trading chips like Harang, Arroyo, and Coco are used properly.

[Raisor]

The goal needs to be: Make the playoffs every year. Of course that's not going to happen, but it needs to be the goal.

The last few years the goal seems to be "inch closer to .500, then watch us try to get to .501.

At this rate, the Reds will be a .500 team sometime in the 2010s and a playoff contender by 2020. At that point it will have been 25 years since the team made the playoffs.

[redsmetz]

The problem is that every "tear down and rebuild" cycle sets the franchise back another three or four years. I think we are closer than that.

There are some obvious adjustments that need to be made with the line-up, but they can be addressed IF trading chips like Harang, Arroyo, and Coco are used properly.

You've hit the nail on the head. I've been saying all month that I think the club was using this year to actually see what players were chips for bolstering the club and which players were keepers (and some players could be either). Now it's a matter of consummating those moves - something easier done here on RZ than in reality.

We're as frustrated as the players. Hence tossing around phrases such as "blow it up" which we say year in and year out. But you've said it - that's going to set us back years and that would be foolish. I'm glad we here on RZ don't run this club.

[traderumor]

I would say that the players are collectively playing up to their capabilities, which just isn't very good. They need better players, plain and simple.

[HeatherC1212]

You've hit the nail on the head. I've been saying all month that I think the club was using this year to actually see what players were chips for bolstering the club and which players were keepers (and some players could be either). Now it's a matter of consummating those moves - something easier done here on RZ than in reality.

We're as frustrated as the players. Hence tossing around phrases such as "blow it up" which we say year in and year out. But you've said it - that's going to set us back years and that would be foolish. I'm glad we here on RZ don't run this club.

Thank you. I completely agree and it's kind of driving me bonkers reading all this stuff about blowing things up and getting rid of everyone when everyone isn't the problem. There are some good pieces to this club (and some players who are not currently in the roles they were originally intended to be thanks to injuries) but they need the right help, aka the missing pieces to the big puzzle. Throwing the puzzle out and starting over is NOT what this club needs right now. I think they're pretty close as well and I hope TPTB do some good things this week if it means improving the club. I'd like to see them do what they can to improve the team for the long haul and build on the good things that are all ready here, and then we can see where they stand both in the remaining games this season and in preparation for next year.

[KoryMac5]

There is a fine line between Pittsburgh and Tampa and it really depends on the folks you have evaluating talent. Pittsburgh chose to go cheap and pick signability guys. Tampa went best player available and lucked out as many of their young stars have panned out for them. I don't think the Reds have to start fresh in the offseason. I think the Reds can hold on to some core guys (Votto, Bruce, Cueto, Volquez) while dealing some excess fat (Harang and Arroyo). I just don't want to get stuck in some time space continuium that see us rebuild and tear down three or four times over the next ten years.

[RED VAN HOT]

Blowing up may be a little harsh, but I would like to see some bold moves. I am tired of the "3 million dollar" free agent contract that seems to accomplish no more than block the advance of minor leaguers. I'd like to see Frazier and Cozart in AAA now. Next year, it would be nice to break camp with Stubbs, Heisey, Frazier, and Cozart on the 25. Add Votto, Bruce, Phillips, and Hanigan and you have a starting 8. Keep Dickerson and Janish. Defer decisions on Hernandez and Gomes until season's end. Keep JHJ on a one year. I have not given up on Valaika. I suspect injuries contributed to his poor season. I think that lineup would be an improvement over the current one.

For starters let's go with Bailey, Cueto, Volquez, Wood, and Stewart.

I think such a lineup has the potential to turn things around and shake the expectation of losing that seems to pop up about this time of year. If they didn't win, it would not be as hard to accept.

[corkedbat]

Problem is, this franchise never fully blows it up nor do they go all out and try to win now, they just go along with a hodge podge of young talent, a handful of decent vets and millions of dollars in filler dreck. They end up with the mediocrity we've seen since 1999. They need to develop a plan and see it through. This past offseason was an embarassment.