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Thread: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

  1. #16
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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormy View Post
    I don't see how it is going to be any easier to move any of these cumbersome contracts in the offseason. I see nothing imminent, aside from the hope of Volquez's return, that makes the Reds inherently more of a contender than they were heading into 2009. So, economic recovery hopes excepted, why would Walt be any more proactive this offseason than he was last offseason?

    I don't want to mortgage a single facet of the farm for short-term players, but this many months in Walt certainly should have identified innumerable ways to make a club this full of holes, better. And yet we're still awaiting the first of those additions, and the timetable keeps getting pushed back.
    Except this is a red herring. No one would ever make the argument that they should trade any prospects for only two months of a player in a dead season.

    Now this group of clowns can grouse about Harang's and Arroyo's contracts and use them as an excuse for not making the team better.

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  3. #17
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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    Why break a nauseating cycle just to prove a point? If I can acquire players without giving up the organization's top talent, fine. But I don't trade future stars for rentals, just to hope I can leap frog 3-4 teams in the standings and prove to fans on Redszone.com that I'm willing to break the habits of organization's past. That's the surest way to continue to set the franchise back.
    Of course, rentals don't make sense. Nobody would rent a player in late July of a dead season.

    Future stars? Every kid isn't a future star, it is up to managment to make correct judgments on which young players to trade.

    But the pattern does have to stop. The Reds draft and hold -- they stockpile kids and seldom cash them in for proven talent. And the Reds seldom make significant free agent signings.

    Everyone criticizes the Cordero signing. My view is opposite. His excellent performance shows that if you spend on real good free agents you can acquire value.

    Spend wisely but spend. Draft wisely but trade some guys for good veterans. The pattern does need to change.

  4. #18
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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    Except this is a red herring. No one would ever make the argument that they should trade any prospects for only two months of a player in a dead season.

    Now this group of clowns can grouse about Harang's and Arroyo's contracts and use them as an excuse for not making the team better.
    Exactly, on both counts.

  5. #19
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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg View Post
    Are you a Castellini?
    No, he's making too much sense to be one of them.
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  6. #20
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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg View Post
    Are you a Castellini?
    Absolutely not. I simply refuse to place blame on any one individual for a franchise that has undergone four owners, four general managers and six managers in a period of 10 years. Especially if the guy has had controlling interest just over three years.

    And right now the Reds' big problem is that they have two burdensome contracts (Harang & Arroyo) of pitchers that seemingly have little or no trade value.

    Not a good situation for flexibility to do things with your club, while trying to meet a budget and have such troublesome 'assets' to liquidate.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    Absolutely not. I simply refuse to place blame on any one individual for a franchise that has undergone four owners, four general managers and six managers in a period of 10 years. Especially if the guy has had controlling interest just over three years.

    And right now the Reds' big problem is that they have two burdensome contracts (Harang & Arroyo) of pitchers that seemingly have little or no trade value.

    Not a good situation for flexibility to do things with your club, while trying to meet a budget and have such troublesome 'assets' to liquidate.
    Take heart: one of these days, when all the crap is off the roster, they'll only be spending a record low $10 million on payroll.

    And they'll still suck.

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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    Now this group of clowns can grouse about Harang's and Arroyo's contracts and use them as an excuse for not making the team better.
    So your argument, essentially, is that Cast should eat those two contracts, ship Harang and Arroyo + Cash to anyone who will give back value, and then add additional payroll to bring proven major leaguers onto the roster?

    Because really, that's the only way the team gets to where you want them to be -- and I put the odds of the owner eating $20+ million AND spending additional money at next to zero.
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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    I can't answer that within any certainty. If I could, or anyone could, they should be hired because clearly they would have the answers that no one in the organization has had for 10 years.

    But I know one thing: selling off young talent to acquire 2 months worth of production, on a team getting close to 10 games out of first place and trailing four different teams is not the way to break the cycle. Make a Scott Rolen trade if you can. If the Reds could make a Roy Halladay trade, do that too (since he has another year left).

    But unless any talent has a big old (C) club option for 2010 or I see more than just 1-year remaining on their contract, stay away. Stay very far away. No need to bust the farm up for the rest of this season.

    In the offseason, I would expect (hope) Jocketty does what I expect and starts making some moves to put this team in a position for next year. I do believe they're close. But I don't see much upside in making any moves the next 36 hours unless that move will also help beyond September 30.
    ... b/c putting all our eggs in the "the farm's gonna save/help us" basket's really worked since the turn of the century, no?

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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    So your argument, essentially, is that Cast should eat those two contracts, ship Harang and Arroyo + Cash to anyone who will give back value, and then add additional payroll to bring proven major leaguers onto the roster?

    Because really, that's the only way the team gets to where you want them to be.
    Why not?

  11. #25
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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    Why not?
    Because the reality is that, while trying to win, you also need to have enough revenue to keep the lights on. I don't have access to their books but I'm not sure that they bring in enough cash to act like that.

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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    Why not?
    I think it's reasonable for the fans to expect an effort to win on the part of ownership.

    I think it's unreasonable for the fans to expect the owner to lose money doing it. This is a business, and the people involved are businessmen and investors. They didn't buy the team to throw money down the rabbit hole -- they bought it to make money and build value. Competition is good, but it has to make fiscal sense.
    Last edited by Caveat Emperor; 07-29-2009 at 10:16 PM.
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  13. #27
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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    ... b/c putting all our eggs in the "the farm's gonna save/help us" basket's really worked since the turn of the century, no?
    Except, for once, people other than just Reds' fans actually commend the organizational depth. Before it was just fans clinging to hope based on the farm. But now there's actual reason to be hopeful of that.

    Look at the homegrown and traded talent starting to filter onto the 25-man roster:

    * Joey Votto
    * Jay Bruce
    * Johnny Cueto
    * Edinson Volquez by way of a nifty Rule-5 acquisition in Josh Hamilton
    * Nick Masset by way of a trade of Griffey
    * Carlos Fisher
    * Josh Roenicke
    * Drew Stubbs or Chris Heisey
    * Travis Wood
    * Ryan Hanigan
    * Chris Dickerson
    * Todd Frazier
    * Yonder Alonso
    * Zach Stewart
    * Mike Leake is said to be on a fast track once he signs

    Point is, the Reds are in a position where they can actually start filtering in homegrown talent instead of having to rely on free agency and trades. The depth and increase in the scouting department (which goes unnoticed here that the ownership has poured a lot more into scouting) has finally started paying slow dividends.

    The reason there has been so much pressure on Homer Bailey is because Reds fans had little else to rest their hopes on. It's not going to be that way over the next 12-18 months. There's a lot of legit talent, both high-ceiling and tremendous bench depth, on its way up.

    It's ironic that the biggest obstacle to the organization right now is that of contracts that the Reds spent money on. Unfortunately, it was (in the case of Arroyo) not money well spent. Thereby, perhaps it's the distribution of funds that is the problem rather than the amount spent.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  14. #28
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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Brutus, my problem with Bob and Walt's PR isn't about whether or not I believe their spin, but rather that in this instance, their inaction matches their rhetoric. 'We're not selling because we can still contend' is all well and good if you're using it as leverage to actually sell higher, but it's credibility eroding when it's used in this manner.

    You'd think an owner who is already on this many managers and general managers, who just proclaimed in 2008, "We're just not going to lose anymore." Might be motivated to at least give it the old college try in 2009, but after another punt of a season, and a 1.5 year period where we haven't added a single piece to the long-term puzzle, we're supposed to believe that the invisible plan was for 2010 all along?

    Might as well be groundhog day, sonny and cher on the radio, and waiting for the GABP to be built before we really get serious about contending.

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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Because the reality is that, while trying to win, you also need to have enough revenue to keep the lights on. I don't have access to their books but I'm not sure that they bring in enough cash to act like that.
    Who said they have to pay out the nose for MLB talent? Or that they have to eat Harang's or Arroyo's contracts? They could almost certainly move one or the other of them. Seriously, the strategy is: do nothing. Collect some recyclable aluminum cans, but be sure to ultimately do nothing to help the MLB product. That's strictly verboten.

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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    I think I would prefer to wait for the re-enforcements before I start marching up the hill. You've had enough of waiting. Fine. Good luck with that, going up to "take that hill" with only half your battalion.

    I'm willing to wait a little longer til I know there's a stream of soldiers behind me. In case the guy next to me falls, I know someone else is right behind him.

    I see the target. I like some of the guys around me. But I'm still waiting a little longer, because there is, as they say, safety in numbers. Especially for a small-market army like ours.
    I have a love-hate relationship with Albert Pujols. Mostly hate.


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