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Thread: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

  1. #31
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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Quote Originally Posted by I(heart)Freel View Post
    I think I would prefer to wait for the re-enforcements before I start marching up the hill. You've had enough of waiting. Fine. Good luck with that, going up to "take that hill" with only half your battalion.

    I'm willing to wait a little longer til I know there's a stream of soldiers behind me. In case the guy next to me falls, I know someone else is right behind him.

    I see the target. I like some of the guys around me. But I'm still waiting a little longer, because there is, as they say, safety in numbers. Especially for a small-market army like ours.
    Farms don't produce forever, and they almost never produce simultaneously. Just ask the Brewers. One and done; sure they got a taste, but now they've slipped back into the void.

    Fortune favors the brave.

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  3. #32
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormy View Post
    Brutus, my problem with Bob and Walt's PR isn't about whether or not I believe their spin, but rather that in this instance, their inaction matches their rhetoric. 'We're not selling because we can still contend' is all well and good if you're using it as leverage to actually sell higher, but it's credibility eroding when it's used in this manner.

    You'd think an owner who is already on this many managers and general managers, who just proclaimed in 2008, "We're just not going to lose anymore." Might be motivated to at least give it the old college try in 2009, but after another punt of a season, and a 1.5 year period where we haven't added a single piece to the long-term puzzle, we're supposed to believe that the invisible plan was for 2010 all along?

    Might as well be groundhog day, sonny and cher on the radio, and waiting for the GABP to be built before we really get serious about contending.
    I actually don't like that Castellini came out and said they wanted to be buyers, and still compete. I would rather he said little at all than said something he did not believe to be truth. But I understand why he did it. He was laying the groundwork for any possible deal that could be seen as throwing in the towel, even if they did not view it that way.

    To answer your question about 2010, I believe that's what Jocketty has planned since he took over in the middle of last season. I truly believe Jocketty saw what he had with the young pitching and knew he had Griffey and Dunn's contracts about to be taken off the books, and decided he was not going to drastically alter the makeup of the 2009 roster. Even without drastically doing that, someone posted the 25-man roster has been well over half turned over.

    I'm not saying it was Castellini's plan, but I believe Jocketty is the one decided it would be best to plan for next year. Sooner or later, or at least no later than this offseason, he's going to have to get some moves made to make that plan work. It's a shame, though, that the Reds need to get Arroyo's salary off the books to allow additional wiggle room. I think if they're able to do that (which may happen in August as he'll surely pass waivers), the team might look better to start 2010.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  4. #33
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Maybe if Baker stopped abusing Harang and Arroyo they'd recover a bit, pitch better and make significant contributions in 2010. Just sayin'.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  5. #34
    Will post for food BuckeyeRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Maybe if Baker stopped abusing Harang and Arroyo they'd recover a bit, pitch better and make significant contributions in 2010. Just sayin'.
    Yes, that 8th inning was necessary tonight, huh?

  6. #35
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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    Who said they have to pay out the nose for MLB talent? Or that they have to eat Harang's or Arroyo's contracts? They could almost certainly move one or the other of them. Seriously, the strategy is: do nothing. Collect some recyclable aluminum cans, but be sure to ultimately do nothing to help the MLB product. That's strictly verboten.
    Your response of "why not?" was to that exact scenario.

    And I can't see them getting anyone to take on either contract without Cincy eating 50% or so.

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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg View Post
    Yes, that 8th inning was necessary tonight, huh?
    Since when is 120 pitches abuse? Hey I'm all for shutting those two stiffs down for the remainder of the season.

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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg View Post
    Yes, that 8th inning was necessary tonight, huh?
    He would seem to be undermining that whole 2010 plan thingamabob.

    Meanwhile, back to the Cardinals, anyone interested in Tyler Greene? I imagine he could be had for a middle reliever.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  9. #38
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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    Since when is 120 pitches abuse?
    Since 1993.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  10. #39
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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    So everyone buys into the idea that these two pitching contracts, which expire in a year, are strangling this team.

    I don't. Even with Harang, Arroyo and Cordero the Reds have a modest payroll. If they wanted to acquire another couple of good veterans it's hard to imagine they couldn't.

    Personally, I doubt that the Reds have top stars looming in the minor leagues, i don't think they will win until they spend the seed money to have more good major league players. Maybe I'm wrong, I hope so.

    But ask yourself, if Jay Bruce, a great prospect, is hitting .207 this year how long will it take lesser prospects to blossom at the major league level? It could be a very long time before the current philosophy results in a winner.
    Last edited by Kc61; 07-29-2009 at 10:36 PM.

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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Meanwhile, back to the Cardinals, anyone interested in Tyler Greene? I imagine he could be had for a middle reliever.

    I imagine he could be had for a bucket of catfish. But why overpay?

  12. #41
    Will post for food BuckeyeRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    Since when is 120 pitches abuse? Hey I'm all for shutting those two stiffs down for the remainder of the season.
    No reason to send Harang out into the 8th. Wasn't like he was working on a shutout or even a win for that matter.

    Pretty much silly and inexcusable, but par for the course.

    M2, I wouldn't trade with the Cards. It's a no-win.

  13. #42
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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    So everyone buys into the idea that these two pitching contracts, which expire in a year, are strangling this team.

    I don't. Even with Harang, Arroyo and Cordero the Reds have a modest payroll. If they wanted to acquire another couple of good veterans it's hard to imagine they couldn't.

    Personally, I don't think the Reds have top stars in the minor leagues, i don't think they will win until they spend the seed money to have more good major league players. Maybe I'm wrong, I hope so.

    But ask yourself, if Jay Bruce, a great prospect, is hitting .207 this year how long will it take lesser prospects to blossom at the major league level? It could be a very long time before the current philosophy results in a winner.
    I agree.

  14. #43
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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    Except, for once, people other than just Reds' fans actually commend the organizational depth. Before it was just fans clinging to hope based on the farm. But now there's actual reason to be hopeful of that.

    Look at the homegrown and traded talent starting to filter onto the 25-man roster:

    * Joey Votto
    * Jay Bruce
    * Johnny Cueto
    * Edinson Volquez by way of a nifty Rule-5 acquisition in Josh Hamilton
    * Nick Masset by way of a trade of Griffey
    * Carlos Fisher
    * Josh Roenicke
    * Drew Stubbs or Chris Heisey
    * Travis Wood
    * Ryan Hanigan
    * Chris Dickerson
    * Todd Frazier
    * Yonder Alonso
    * Zach Stewart
    * Mike Leake is said to be on a fast track once he signs

    Point is, the Reds are in a position where they can actually start filtering in homegrown talent instead of having to rely on free agency and trades. The depth and increase in the scouting department (which goes unnoticed here that the ownership has poured a lot more into scouting) has finally started paying slow dividends.

    The reason there has been so much pressure on Homer Bailey is because Reds fans had little else to rest their hopes on. It's not going to be that way over the next 12-18 months. There's a lot of legit talent, both high-ceiling and tremendous bench depth, on its way up.

    It's ironic that the biggest obstacle to the organization right now is that of contracts that the Reds spent money on. Unfortunately, it was (in the case of Arroyo) not money well spent. Thereby, perhaps it's the distribution of funds that is the problem rather than the amount spent.
    Starting to filter onto the 25 man roster you say?

    What do these guys have in common?

    * Drew Stubbs or Chris Heisey
    * Travis Wood
    * Todd Frazier
    * Yonder Alonso
    * Zach Stewart
    * Mike Leake

    I'm sure you know that none of them have ever appeared on the 25 man roster, so until they've done so, they haven't done squat in a Reds uniform.

    What do these guys have in common?

    * Edinson Volquez
    * Nick Masset

    Answer: Our farm had nothing to do with them. So, to give our farm credit for developing either of these is highly inaccurate.



    While I'd love to hope that the Reds have turned the corner in terms of developing young talent, it remains to be seen if this is actually the case. It seems like some of our kids have developed in spite of our farm.

    Bailey, Mesoraco, they certainly haven't fared well from the farm to the show, now have they?

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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Maybe if Baker stopped abusing Harang and Arroyo they'd recover a bit, pitch better and make significant contributions in 2010. Just sayin'.
    I was told in a separate thread that The Dusty is doing nothing of the sort...

  16. #45
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    Re: Cardinals after a setup guy.. not done making them even better

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    So everyone buys into the idea that these two pitching contracts, which expire in a year, are strangling this team.

    I don't. Even with Harang, Arroyo and Cordero the Reds have a modest payroll. If they wanted to acquire another couple of good veterans it's hard to imagine they couldn't.

    Personally, I don't think the Reds have top stars in the minor leagues, i don't think they will win until they spend the seed money to have more good major league players. Maybe I'm wrong, I hope so.

    But ask yourself, if Jay Bruce, a great prospect, is hitting .207 this year how long will it take lesser prospects to blossom at the major league level? It could be a very long time before the current philosophy results in a winner.
    I agree with you. The next wave of help is, optimistically, two seasons away in terms of making a positive impact.

    If 2010 is the plan then Walt needs to start collecting bodies, large numbers of bodies.
    Last edited by M2; 07-29-2009 at 10:47 PM.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.


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