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Thread: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

  1. #1006
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    Schilling sure pitched a lot of innings in the minors and i thought Pete was a reliever first as well.

    Thanks for the clear information.


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  3. #1007
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Always Red View Post
    The most puzzling aspect of the trade to me is that this team should be selling, not buying.

    They added payroll (albeit next year) and reduced the overall assets of the team in order to get better now. That is the last thing one would expect a last place team (yes, we have sunk to the level of the Pirates) to do at the trade deadline.

    I guess that means that the FO and management feel this club is still a contender, both for this year and next. Could be.

    Fay did note that it is clear that Castellini will never "burn it down" and attempt to rebuild, ala the Marlins in years past and the Pirates currently. I agree with Fay's thinking here.

    If he's not going to attempt a rebuild, then Castellini's only other option is to add payroll.

    ...or continue to tread water.
    If we must have the world in black and white focus, in an "either/or" scheme, then sure we should have been selling. But the world rarely fits into such clear focus. Frankly, for all the talk of endless running in place and a culture of losing and such, it surprises me that the complexity of having to work within the constraints of a marketplace have folks lining up in one camp or another.

    Frankly, I think the Marlins approach is dreadful and I say that fully aware that they've won two World Series since we have. I'm not interested in a so called "complete teardown." It's unnecessary and it will be brutal. Things aren't that black and white, IMO.
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  4. #1008
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    I love the assumption that Greg Vaughn was leader because he yelled at people, he also brought facial hair to the team and a coffee maker. Using the same logic that makes him a leader to some I've come to the conclusion that he was also Rollie Fingers and Juan Valdez.
    I have stated many times before that leadership and clubhouse qualities are over-rated, that talent comes first.

    However...

    No offense, (that second part about the coffee and facial hair still has me laughing, btw) but I am getting frustrated with people saying that Vaughn was a leader because he yelled at players or because he picked up a player by his collar and got in his face.

    No one who tells those stories is saying that soley is what made Vaughn a leader. Those are told to exemplify Vaughn's leadership, not define it. I have no idea if Vaughn really was a leader or not, but if he was, it went much further than him yelling at people.

    Heck, maybe it had nothing to do with him yelling at people, maybe the people telling those stories got it wrong, but he was still a leader in other ways. I have always said that true leaders lead by example, by being smart, professional and playing the game the right way. If Vaughn was a leader, I have a feeling that had more to do with it than with his temper.

    Sorry, just been reading that line too many times, I had to get that off my chest.
    Last edited by TheNext44; 08-02-2009 at 01:40 PM.
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  5. #1009
    Kentuckian At Heart WVRed's Avatar
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    I'm not discounting leadership at all, just the label that Vaughn was the best Reds leader in years.

    The fact that you missed that on your couch doesn't surprise me either.
    Considering that 1999 was the last time the Reds did anything significant, and Vaughn was a key member of that team and in the run the year before with San Diego should speak volumes.
    Quote Originally Posted by savafan View Post
    I've read books about sparkling vampires who walk around in the daylight that were written better than a John Fay article.

  6. #1010
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRed View Post
    Considering that 1999 was the last time the Reds did anything significant, and Vaughn was a key member of that team and in the run the year before with San Diego should speak volumes.
    Oddly, in Vaughn's other 13 seasons, he never "lead" his team to anything better than a 2nd place finish.

  7. #1011
    Kentuckian At Heart WVRed's Avatar
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    I have stated many times before that leadership and clubhouse qualities are over-rated, that talent comes first.

    However...

    No offense, (that second part about the coffee and facial hair still has me laughing, btw) but I am getting frustrated with people saying that Vaughn was a leader because he yelled at players or because he picked up a player by his collar and got in his face.

    No one who tells those stories is saying that soley is what made Vaughn a leader. Those are told to exemplify Vaughn's leadership, not define it. I have no idea if Vaughn really was a leader or not, but if he was, it went much further than him yelling at people.

    Heck, maybe it had nothing to do with him yelling at people, maybe the people telling those stories got it wrong, but he was still a leader in other ways. I have always said that true leaders lead by example, by being smart, professional and playing the game the right way. If Vaughn was a leader, I have a feeling that had more to do with it than with his temper.

    Sorry, just been reading that line too many times, I had to get that off my chest.
    I never said that I thought Vaughn was a leader because he yelled at people. I do believe though that he brought to this team the same thing that Scott Rolen will end up bringing, and that is a veteran presence that the younger players will look up to.

    Look at most of the successful teams in baseball and you will find a mix of veterans and youth. The Yankees have Derek Jeter. The Red Sox have David Ortiz. Even the Rays last season had Troy Percival. I really don't think we would have a position player who would likely compare.
    Quote Originally Posted by savafan View Post
    I've read books about sparkling vampires who walk around in the daylight that were written better than a John Fay article.

  8. #1012
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    I have stated many times before that leadership and clubhouse qualities are over-rated, that talent comes first.

    However...

    No offense, (that second part about the coffee and facial hair still has me laughing, btw) but I am getting frustrated with people saying that Vaughn was a leader because he yelled at players or because he picked up a player by his collar and got in his face.

    No one who tells those stories is saying that soley is what made Vaughn a leader. Those are told to exemplify Vaughn's leadership, not define it. I have no idea if Vaughn really was a leader or not, but if he was, it went much further than him yelling at people.

    Heck, maybe it had nothing to do with him yelling at people, maybe the people telling those stories got it wrong, but he was still a leader in other ways. I have always said that true leaders lead by example, by being smart, professional and playing the game the right way. If Vaughn was a leader, I have a feeling that had more to do with it than with his temper.

    Sorry, just been reading that line too many times, I had to get that off my chest.
    I've yet to hear that part, hence my inability to hook up on the Greg Vaughn best leader train. He could have been, but I want to hear more about that than he "got in your face"

  9. #1013
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRed View Post
    Considering that 1999 was the last time the Reds did anything significant, and Vaughn was a key member of that team and in the run the year before with San Diego should speak volumes.
    Considering his power surge, his teammate Ken Caminitti and his body break down and his persona as "angry leader" I could make all sorts of assumptions too.

    I liked Greg Vaughn, but he's just another Deron Johnson in Reds lore, a guy who had a monster season on a team that didn't play in the post season.

  10. #1014
    Member Marc D's Avatar
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRed View Post
    Considering that 1999 was the last time the Reds did anything significant, and Vaughn was a key member of that team and in the run the year before with San Diego should speak volumes.

    Leadership is important once the talent base is in place. All the leadership in the world isn't going to fix the dearth of talent facing this organization right now.

    Rolen could be able to lead and inspire men on par with Churchill, Gahndi and Roosevelt but it won't make Tavaras a good ball player.

  11. #1015
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Considering his power surge, his teammate Ken Caminitti and his body break down and his persona as "angry leader" I could make all sorts of assumptions too.

    I liked Greg Vaughn, but he's just another Deron Johnson in Reds lore, a guy who had a monster season on a team that didn't play in the post season.
    1999 was Barry Larkin's team, period. Greg Vaughn may have served as a 'sergeant at arms', and another professional, mature vet, but Lark was the leader.
    Baseball is like church. Many attend, few understand

  12. #1016
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by VR View Post
    1999 was Barry Larkin's team, period. Greg Vaughn may have served as a 'sergeant at arms', and another professional, mature vet, but Lark was the leader.
    I can't imagine any of us have to knowledge to make such an assertion as above unless we were there in the clubhouse for the 1999 season. I loved Larkin and Vaughn, but to start breaking down the leadership differences between the 2 without actually being there seems pointless.

  13. #1017
    Passion for the game Team Clark's Avatar
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRedsFan View Post
    I'll disagree here. Few pitchers come back with the velocity they once had and without that, Edinson is not all that.
    I agree with you down the line on your post with the exception of the comment about Volquez. I am not sure how to look up the data, but from my experience a vast majority of pitchers who have had TJ come back as strong or STRONGER. Shoulder surgery, I see your point. TJ, I have to disagree.
    It's absolutely pathetic that people can't have an opinion from actually watching games and supplementing that with stats. If you voice an opinion that doesn't fit into a black/white box you will get completely misrepresented and basically called a tobacco chewing traditionalist...
    Cedric 3/24/08

  14. #1018
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    This thread has reached the 1,000 post threshold. If you want to start a new discussion, feel free to in another thread.
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