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Thread: Scott Rolen traded to the Reds

  1. #616
    Member Stormy's Avatar
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg View Post
    What about the rest of this years?

    I guess I'm confused. They owed him $4M+ this year. So if the Jays give the Reds $4M, why would it be considered for NEXT year?
    The monetary problem posed here is considerable. Did we just eat up an enormous chunk of any excess payroll we had for 2010, for a lateral 'upgrade'? Where is the money going to come from to add any value at the innumerable other positions still needing to be addressed, if in fact 2010 is the de facto target year to contend? If we have payroll room, why not kick in a little cash to help us unload Harang or Arroyo, or for that matter why couldn't we add a big bat heading into 2009?

    We have tons of 'dead' payroll now. And I guess our strategy for 2010 is going to be to hope that Arroyo and Harang miraculously return to 2006 form, everyone gets healthy, and that we can plug in stop-gaps to fill our areas of actual need (LF, SS, SP etc...).

    If we were going to trade this much value, I sure wish we could have added someone younger, more productive, healthier and more a part of the long-term picture than Scott Rolen. And Walt's already talking extension?

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  3. #617
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by redsfandan View Post
    I'm going by this:

    I'd say yes to the 1st question but, like others have mentioned, the Reds need to do more between now and April 2010.
    He possibly helps if this team is willing to put up a lot of extra money and make competent decisions in the next 8mos or so, but I see ZERO chances of this. If this team only needed Rolen to contend next year, I wouldn't complain a bit about Rolen for EdE/Roenicke.

  4. #618
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormy View Post
    The monetary problem posed here is considerable. Did we just eat up an enormous chunk of any excess payroll we had for 2010, for a lateral 'upgrade'? Where is the money going to come from to add any value at the innumerable other positions still needing to be addressed, if in fact 2010 is the de facto target year to contend? If we have payroll room, why not kick in a little cash to help us unload Harang or Arroyo, or for that matter why couldn't we add a big bat heading into 2009?

    We have tons of 'dead' payroll now. And I guess our strategy for 2010 is going to be to hope that Arroyo and Harang miraculously return to 2006 form, everyone gets healthy, and that we can plug in stop-gaps to fill our areas of actual need (LF, SS, SP etc...).

    If we were going to trade this much value, I sure wish we could have added someone younger, more productive, healthier and more a part of the long-term picture than Scott Rolen. And Walt's already talking extension?
    Rolen is about $6M more than EE would've been.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  5. #619
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by gm View Post
    You're right, Ramon can run
    And Bo Diaz was magic.
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  6. #620
    Will post for food BuckeyeRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    Stewart was the wild card, but we had to give something to get something, so the fact that we now have a stud defender @ 3B who has a reliable stick, what's not to like?
    You mean like $4M? There really was no reason to include Stewart in this deal when WJ should have had all the leverage (Jays wanting to shed payroll, Rolen wanting to come home, etc.).

    And look at Rolen's last two years on the back of his baseball card and tell me if that you don't mind him playing 70% of the time.

    EE for Rolen with no $$$ involved should have gotten this deal done, but WJ went all in with a pair of two's.

    EE and Roenicke was more than enough to get this deal done.

  7. #621
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by redsfandan View Post
    The Reds overpaid but until it's a few years from now we won't be able to really judge this deal fairly yet.
    My own guess as to how things shakeout: We'll be judging this when Rolen is on the DL or unproductive, and the returning cast of usual suspects, has the Reds 10+ games out of first place by the 2010 All-Star game. That's the overwhelming likelihood in my opinion, and the only factor that could change this is if Walt has a lot of big moves up his sleeve for the offseason. As of right now, I'm not sure where he can get the flexibility to make it happen.

  8. #622
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg View Post
    You mean like $4M? There really was no reason to include Stewart in this deal when WJ should have had all the leverage (Jays wanting to shed payroll, Rolen wanting to come home, etc.).

    And look at Rolen's last two years on the back of his baseball card and tell me if that you don't mind him playing 70% of the time.

    EE for Rolen with no $$$ involved should have gotten this deal done, but WJ went all in with a pair of two's.

    EE and Roenicke was more than enough to get this deal done.
    ^^^^
    This.

  9. #623
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg View Post
    You mean like $4M? There really was no reason to include Stewart in this deal when WJ should have had all the leverage (Jays wanting to shed payroll, Rolen wanting to come home, etc.).

    And look at Rolen's last two years on the back of his baseball card and tell me if that you don't mind him playing 70% of the time.

    EE for Rolen with no $$$ involved should have gotten this deal done, but WJ went all in with a pair of two's.

    EE and Roenicke was more than enough to get this deal done.
    And if it wasn't enough he should have walked away. problem is the organization had sat on their hands for so long (mistake #1) they felt forced into doing something to appease the general fan base. Stupid is as stupid does.

    And BTW you don't have to usually have to give up something to get something that is a big myth. Ya just have to be able to outsmart your competition Ricciardi did that.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

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  10. #624
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg View Post
    You mean like $4M? There really was no reason to include Stewart in this deal when WJ should have had all the leverage (Jays wanting to shed payroll, Rolen wanting to come home, etc.).

    And look at Rolen's last two years on the back of his baseball card and tell me if that you don't mind him playing 70% of the time.

    EE for Rolen with no $$$ involved should have gotten this deal done, but WJ went all in with a pair of two's.

    EE and Roenicke was more than enough to get this deal done.
    I certainly won't lose any sleep over the Reds trading a pitching prospect who neither side knows his true role.

    The Reds either thought he was a starter and put him in the pen to limit his innings, or they didn't know what to do with him, and by default put him in the pen.

    The Blue Jays have already said that they don't know if he'll be a starter or a reliever.

    So, definitely not going to lose any sleep over this move. I'll just enjoy better defense @ 3B.

  11. #625
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Rolen is about $6M more than EE would've been.
    Exactly. That's huge on a team that ostensibly needs to be cutting major salaries before they can start adding in 2010. That $6M, and Taveras' $4.5M bump alone, eradicates the long-anticipated event of Gonzo coming off the books. And unless Walt can move the major salaries he's been unable to budge for 3 consecutive deadline, offseason, deadline periods, the Harang, Arroyo, Cordero troika are going to have us right up against limits before we even start shopping for 2010. Unless Rolen is one in a series of bold moves, this has the marks of not being able to go anywhere IMO.

  12. #626
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    Anybody who thinks this was a good trade has no business complainig about the Taveras signing. This is every single bit as stupid, even if it works out better than this FO hopes. Not the kind of risk tis team should take. Stupid from every conceivable angle.

  13. #627
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    After thinking about this for a bit... I don't completely mind the players that we gave up. Roenicke looks like a good, but not great bullpen arm. One that should fit in a set-up role.

    Zach Stewart, has been quite good, albeit in a limited sample as a starter. I think he's a great bet to be a late inning reliever, but not nearly enough evidence to suggest the same as a starter. I think he absolutely does have a chance to be a Derek Lowe, but at the same time, if he were so obviously good, it's hard to imagine why he was thought of as a reliever come draft time, and why the Jays seem to be looking at him as more of a reliever.

    Edwin is no longer cheap, can't field, and his bat looks like nothing more than the low .800's he's been doing. As that, I think we can all agree on that he doesn't have much, if any trade value.

    In total, I'm not sure if the return is much different than what the Cards gave up for DeRosa. I considered that an overpayment at the time, but he's also a FA to be, and isn't nearly as good as Rolen (closer to EE). With the salary the Jays are covering, he's not an albatross by any means. I think it's arguable that forgetting about how badly the Reds actually need the guy, that the price is pretty reasonable.

    Now my biggest question continues to be, is Rolen a fit for the 2010 Reds? For that to happen, the Reds better be ready to contend. I'll take an edabbs approach on this one.... if the Reds make some other moves in addition to this, to make the team a potential contender next year, I wont have any problems with this. If Rolen is THE move, it's a complete waste of assets and misallignment of the team's assets.

    Rolen is a really good player, the fielding is obviously still there, and his line drive power might play well enough in GABP's short left might lead to a bigger HR boost than the normal park factors would indicate. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibilities that he could string together a few high .800 OPS type of numbers outside of the AL East in GABP. The Reds run the risk of injury especially if it means they can't trade him later on next year if the team can't contend, but if the overall plan is to contend next year, and Rolen is just one of a few of the moves on the horizon, I think this can be a very reasonable trade.

  14. #628
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by corkedbat View Post
    Anybody who thinks this was a good trade has no business complainig about the Taveras signing. This is every single bit as stupid, even if it works out better than this FO hopes. Not the kind of risk tis team shouldtake. Stupid from every conceivable angle.
    The Taveras signing was/is still worse than this deal.

    The Taveras deal had no hope of helping this club.

    The Rolen trade, however, improves the ballclub.

  15. #629
    Will post for food BuckeyeRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    I certainly won't lose any sleep over the Reds trading a pitching prospect who neither side knows his true role.
    You know, I don't get too attached to prospects. I understand they are assets to an organization and many times they can be used as trading chips.

    With that said, Stewart was on his way to being a top 50 prospect in all of baseball, quite possibly by this off-season. That might not mean he's a guaranteed future Cy Young award winner for the Reds, but what it does mean is that he would have a bunch of value to other organizations if the Reds dangled him.

    I don't mind dangling him for something great to help this club for the future, but it appears they caved and dealt him for nothing more than money. It all really came down to money in the long run and that's a shame.

    And Rolen? Pfft. Again, he would have been nice seven years ago when the Reds were at that fork in the road. A day late and a dollar short (literally).

    But, hey maybe they can go after Holliday in seven years. Yormon Rodrriquez should be 23 by then and heck, he'd be just a prospect anyway, right?

  16. #630
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    Re: Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    The Taveras signing was/is still worse than this deal.

    The Taveras deal had no hope of helping this club.

    The Rolen trade, however, improves the ballclub.
    This trade's value this year is virtually nill.

    This trade's value is marginal next year unless they can add solid talent at multiple spots and there is no reason to believe this to be so. They dealt for a guy they could've dealt for during the offseason (after taking a run at Beltre or Figgins).

    For this deal to help beyond 2010 means they would need to extned him in the face of his health risks and declining production. This alone is so mind-bogglingly foolish that I would have said even this front office wouldn't consider it if Jocketty hadn't made it a special point in the press conference.

    This trade was dumber than the Taveras signing by several orders of magnitude (and I still loathe it).


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