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Thread: Reds 40 Man Roster as of 8/1/09. What players need protection in Rule V draft?

  1. #151
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Reds 40 Man Roster as of 8/1/09. What players need protection in Rule V draft?

    Quote Originally Posted by redsof72 View Post
    Surprising to me, the Reds took Ramon Ramirez off the roster today and he did not make it through waivers. He was claimed by Tampa Bay. Castillo also taken off the 40-man but signed to a minor league deal. McDonald elected free agency, could still be re-signed. He will get a pretty good minor league deal financially.
    Just out of curiosity, where did you find out about this? MLB.com doesn't have it and neither does Reds.com. I'm assuming there's some site out there with fast updates that I'm not aware of.

    ~edit~ It was Fay, right? Just saw it.
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  3. #152
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    Re: Reds 40 Man Roster as of 8/1/09. What players need protection in Rule V draft?

    I am not taking a position on Dorn because I have not seen him play. But I have been told by some key people with the Reds that they moved him to first base last spring, not because he could play there, but because they were trying to find some place he COULD play.

    Triple-A rosters are filled with guys who hit much better than Dorn has but get stuck in Triple-A because the big league manager does not trust him defensively. A guy like Jon Knott averaged 28 homers a year for four straight years and got 17 big league at-bats because he could not be trusted in the field. There are lots of Brian Buchannon, Kevin Witt types. But when the manager dips down to Triple-A to find someone, he calls up Dewayne Wise or Darnell McDonald.

    If you are going to play defense like Adam Dunn, you better hit like Adam Dunn. Because every time a ball lands on the warning track that a decent outfielder would have caught, which happens all the time, the manager starts second guessing himself, he starts hearing it from the pitchers and the pitching coach, and GM starts hearing it from the pitchers' agents. If the guy is winning games with his bat, it is another story. But he better be doing a lot of hitting. Even guys like Gomes and Nix, while not gold glovers, do have at least adequate range and overall defensive skills.

    If Dorn had no range in the field and can't run the bases, he can still play in the big leagues, but there is a narrow profile he has to fit and it includes a lot of offense.

    I can tell you first hand in Dayton this year, the Dragons season often was a product of outfield defense. When Sappelt, Means, and Chapman were out there, nothing fell in. When those guys were gone, lets just say the infielders got a lot of chances to work on relay throws.
    Last edited by redsof72; 11-10-2009 at 09:51 AM.

  4. #153
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    Re: Reds 40 Man Roster as of 8/1/09. What players need protection in Rule V draft?

    Speaking of Means . . . He hasn't been a factor on our top-40 lists, as I recall. But by all accounts, he's a tremendous athlete. For those of you who have seen him quite a bit (Doug, 72, etc.): Do you think he should be considered at some point?

  5. #154
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    Re: Reds 40 Man Roster as of 8/1/09. What players need protection in Rule V draft?

    I don't think he has really shown anything yet one way or the other to give you much to go on due to the football overlap. I think 2010 is a big year for Means as far as proving what he can or can't do. He was by far the fastest Dayton player in 2009 and had many infield hits similar to what Stubbs did in Cincinnati where the infielder just underestimated his speed. Means was 19 for 19 on the bases in 53 games. He has a very impressive physical build but does not hit for much power. I watched him closely and thought his wrists, hands, and forearms were so thick from his football conditioning that he had no flexibility as far as generating any leverage from his wrists in his swing. He swung with a very stiff motion. Hopefully, by getting into baseball shape, that will change. Plus, he was playing hurt for a lot of the time he was here and eventually they shut him down. If he had been healthy, might have been different. Excellent tools guy. Good center fielder, good arm. Good kid. He is a wildcard, kind of like a Duran. Just too early to know what to expect even though his age would say otherwise. He won't be on the Baseball America top 30 but he might show up on the organizational depth chart along with guys like Puckett, Mendez, and Wiley who miss the top 30 but are worth watching.

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    Re: Reds 40 Man Roster as of 8/1/09. What players need protection in Rule V draft?

    Redsof72, have any thoughts on Sappelt? I think he may be a little underrated as a prospect at this point -- his performance in high A in his first full year was pretty strong. You like him as a prospect?
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  7. #156
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    Re: Reds 40 Man Roster as of 8/1/09. What players need protection in Rule V draft?

    I'm sure 72 will answer, but in the event that he's indisposed for a while . . . I seem to recall that he wrote about Sappelt during the summer and was unimpressed by the way he plays the game. A whole lot of baserunning errors, etc. If I'm not mistaken, the overall impression was that he was less than the sum of his numbers. I believe that reports are good on his defense, however.

  8. #157
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    Re: Reds 40 Man Roster as of 8/1/09. What players need protection in Rule V draft?

    Quote Originally Posted by redsof72 View Post
    I am not taking a position on Dorn because I have not seen him play. But I have been told by some key people with the Reds that they moved him to first base last spring, not because he could play there, but because they were trying to find some place he COULD play.

    Triple-A rosters are filled with guys who hit much better than Dorn has but get stuck in Triple-A because the big league manager does not trust him defensively. A guy like Jon Knott averaged 28 homers a year for four straight years and got 17 big league at-bats because he could not be trusted in the field. There are lots of Brian Buchannon, Kevin Witt types. But when the manager dips down to Triple-A to find someone, he calls up Dewayne Wise or Darnell McDonald.

    If you are going to play defense like Adam Dunn, you better hit like Adam Dunn. Because every time a ball lands on the warning track that a decent outfielder would have caught, which happens all the time, the manager starts second guessing himself, he starts hearing it from the pitchers and the pitching coach, and GM starts hearing it from the pitchers' agents. If the guy is winning games with his bat, it is another story. But he better be doing a lot of hitting. Even guys like Gomes and Nix, while not gold glovers, do have at least adequate range and overall defensive skills.

    If Dorn had no range in the field and can't run the bases, he can still play in the big leagues, but there is a narrow profile he has to fit and it includes a lot of offense.

    I can tell you first hand in Dayton this year, the Dragons season often was a product of outfield defense. When Sappelt, Means, and Chapman were out there, nothing fell in. When those guys were gone, lets just say the infielders got a lot of chances to work on relay throws.
    A bit off your topic but I noticed you included Nix which surprised me I thought he was a well above average defender in LF probably a solid RF and could play CF in a pinch. I thought he was better than anyone we had in LF specifically, at least when healthy. Just wondered if you felt the opposite?
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    Re: Reds 40 Man Roster as of 8/1/09. What players need protection in Rule V draft?

    I did not mean to undercut Nix at all. I just meant to say he gets the job done.

    I am not a Sappelt fan. He has two major things going for him, both related to athletic ability. First, he has tremendous range in center field. He will catch balls that few outfielders will get close to. Unfortunately, his arm is so weak that you could not play him in center in the big leagues. He would have to play left. Second, as a base runner, he has tremendous accceleration. He can get to top speed in an instant. Unfortunately, he is not a good base stealer in terms of getting good jumps. And when it comes to understanding game situations and knowing the risk/reward of trying to take a base, he is lost, maybe the worst I have ever seen. You might see Sappelt thrown out trying to steal third in the ninth inning, down by three runs. He just has no understanding or thought process whatsoever of what he is doing on the bases other than to just run every time he can. He had 26 steals and was caught 11 times. Many of the 26 steals came in situations where he was just running to build the stats, like a blow-out game when the opponent was basically conceding the base. I did not like his make-up.

    As a hitter, where are you gonna put him in the order. He started out in the lead-off spot, but his .322 OBP did not give you much there. They tried moving him down to the middle of the order but a .392 SLP was not anything to write home about. He is probably an eight hole hitter. And here was the most telling thing: look at how he hit in critical situations, those times when the games were won or lost, when the opposing pitcher is really bearing down and is going to battle you hard and give you the best he has. Sappelt hit .192 with runners in scoring position and when you focus in to runners in scoring position with two outs (the most important situation in baseball because you either drive in runs or end a rally), he hit just .135.

    He has some talent, no doubt, but he was not the player I hoped he would be.

  10. #159
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    Re: Reds 40 Man Roster as of 8/1/09. What players need protection in Rule V draft?

    Means stats makes Sappelt look like an all star (9 walks - 42 Ks) thats almost Francisco like

  11. #160
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    Re: Reds 40 Man Roster as of 8/1/09. What players need protection in Rule V draft?

    Quote Originally Posted by icehole3 View Post
    Means stats makes Sappelt look like an all star (9 walks - 42 Ks) thats almost Francisco like
    Francisco was actually better this year than that.

  12. #161
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    Re: Reds 40 Man Roster as of 8/1/09. What players need protection in Rule V draft?

    not to mention what Sappelt did in the FSL which zaps most players stats, he put up some decent numbers, look I'll take any kid thats taking care of business in the FSL

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    Re: Reds 40 Man Roster as of 8/1/09. What players need protection in Rule V draft?

    I am not a Sappelt fan. He has two major things going for him, both related to athletic ability. First, he has tremendous range in center field. He will catch balls that few outfielders will get close to. Unfortunately, his arm is so weak that you could not play him in center in the big leagues. He would have to play left. Second, as a base runner, he has tremendous accceleration. He can get to top speed in an instant. Unfortunately, he is not a good base stealer in terms of getting good jumps. And when it comes to understanding game situations and knowing the risk/reward of trying to take a base, he is lost, maybe the worst I have ever seen. You might see Sappelt thrown out trying to steal third in the ninth inning, down by three runs. He just has no understanding or thought process whatsoever of what he is doing on the bases other than to just run every time he can. He had 26 steals and was caught 11 times. Many of the 26 steals came in situations where he was just running to build the stats, like a blow-out game when the opponent was basically conceding the base. I did not like his make-up.

    As a hitter, where are you gonna put him in the order. He started out in the lead-off spot, but his .322 OBP did not give you much there. They tried moving him down to the middle of the order but a .392 SLP was not anything to write home about. He is probably an eight hole hitter. And here was the most telling thing: look at how he hit in critical situations, those times when the games were won or lost, when the opposing pitcher is really bearing down and is going to battle you hard and give you the best he has. Sappelt hit .192 with runners in scoring position and when you focus in to runners in scoring position with two outs (the most important situation in baseball because you either drive in runs or end a rally), he hit just .135.

    He has some talent, no doubt, but he was not the player I hoped he would be.
    Thanks, 72, interesting stuff.

    I read somewhere recently that Sappelt was voted MVP of the Reds instructional league. (I believe Carlos Mendez was voted the top hitter and Brain Pearl the top pitcher.) So, given his performance post-Dayton, it could be that Sappelt is learning some of the stuff you saw him lacking.
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  14. #163
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Reds 40 Man Roster as of 8/1/09. What players need protection in Rule V draft?

    Kip Wells officially filed for Free Agency which I think removes him from the 40 man roster and Ramon Hernandez' signing locks him in. I think the 40 man now stands at 36

    Code:
    Spot	PSO	Name
    1	P	Aaron Harang
    2	P	Bronson Arroyo
    3	P	Matt Maloney
    4	P	Homer Bailey
    5	P	Johnny Cueto
    6	P	Nick Masset
    7	P	Francisco Cordero
    8	P	Jared Burton
    9	P	Micah Owings
    10	P	Danny Rae Herrera
    11	P	Bill Bray
    12	P	Arthur Lee Rhodes
    13	P	Carlos Fisher
    14	P	Edinson Volquez
    15	P	Daryl Thompson
    16	P	Mike Lincoln
    17	P	Pedro Viola
    18	P	Sam Lecure
    19	C	Ryan Hanigan
    20	C	Ramon Hernandez
    21	C	Craig Tatum
    22	IF	Adam Rosales
    23	IF	Drew Sutton
    24	IF	Joey Votto
    25	IF	Brandon Phillips
    26	IF	Scott Rolen
    27	IF	Yonder Alonso
    28	IF	Paul Janish
    29	OF	Willie Taveras
    30	OF	Juan Francisco
    31	OF	Drew Stubbs
    32	OF	Wladimir Balentien
    33	OF	Laynce Nix
    34	OF	Jay Bruce
    35	OF	Chris Dickerson
    36	OF	Johnny Gomes
    Guys left unprotected at this point

    Code:
    Phil Valiquette
    Jordan Smith
    Enerio Del Rosario
    Travis Wood
    Chris Heisey
    Logan Ondrusek
    Danny Dorn
    Chris Valaika
    Corky Miller
    Chris Denove
    Sean Henry
    Miguel Rojas
    Logan Parker
    Sean Watson
    Justin Lehr
    Kris Negron
    Ruben Medina
    Luis Montano
    Derrik Lutz
    Oscar Castro
    Wilkin Castillo
    I have to think Heisey and Wood are locks and Miller, Lehr and Castillo are certain to be exposed. There will surely be more movement on and off by Friday which is the deadline I believe for setting the roster prior to Rule 5.
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  15. #164
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    Re: Reds 40 Man Roster as of 8/1/09. What players need protection in Rule V draft?

    I have to think Heisey and Wood are locks and Miller, Lehr and Castillo are certain to be exposed. There will surely be more movement on and off by Friday which is the deadline I believe for setting the roster prior to Rule 5.
    Miller, Lehr and Castillo have already signed contracts for 2010. They'll be in Louisville.
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  16. #165
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    Re: Reds 40 Man Roster as of 8/1/09. What players need protection in Rule V draft?

    I have seen Rojas on the list several times. I am not certain of the exact wording on international players and their Rule V eligibility. He has played four years and signed at 16. Do we know for certain that the list on post 163 is official?

    My guess at this point, (and this is just a guess because you talk to different people within the organization and they all have vastly different opinions of who should be protected) with four days before the roster has to be set, is that they fill the four current vacancies with Heisey and Wood (locks), Valaika (highly probable), and Ondrusek (would have been a lock if not for AFL struggles). If there are more vacancies created, my next set of additions, in order, would be Valiquette, Del Rosario, and Jordan Smith. That's seven. That's probably it unless they add Dorn, which would surprise me a little based on the things I have heard.


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