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Thread: Reds Orginzational Woes

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    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Reds Orginzational Woes

    Not that it's any great shock to those paying attention over The Lost Decade, but the Reds as an organization are a mess.

    Some various examples:

    While there's been some small improvements in the pitching realms, generally speaking the Reds have been very weak at pitching development & coaching. How many times have we watched a pitcher flounder here only to go be effective/serviceable elsewhere? How many times have we watched pitching coaches doze on the bench when it's obvious a trip to the mound is warranted?

    Talent evaluation has been suspect. This is the franchise that has targeted such luminaries as Corey Patterson, Paul Bako, Juan Castro, Deangelo Jameniz (sp?), JHJ and Edabb's favorite player of all time, Willy Taveras. Yes, the buck stops at the GM, but what about the lower level talent scouts, advisers, etc. I can't believe they didn't play some sort of role in suggesting and campaigning for these players.

    Resource management. You would think it would take an act of congress to get the Reds to move players to new positions. How many years did we hear that it was impossible to move KGJ to RF? Although I've argued against it, why not move BPhil to short stop for a year to try it out? If it fails, move him back. Why was Edwin E glued to 3B when he could have at least been moved to LF as an experiment? Not saying all of these are no-brainer moves, but IMO the Reds have missed the boat in simply changing a players position to solve a problem rather than trying to bring someone new in.

    Scouting: Other teams seem to have the book on us from the get go, while we seem mystified when we face other teams. It's likely more of an issue of talent and a lineup of hackers, but the advance scouting area seems weak (at best).

    Ownership: We've gone from Linder who didn't seem to care, to Bozo Bob who doesn't want to deal with the reality of the state of his company. He simply refuses to understand his "win now" attitude, while admirable, isn't helping his company. Not much we can do about ownership, but it effects the organization as a whole.
    -------------------------------------------------------

    Each of these areas are worthy of their own separate discussions (and have been many times over the years), and I'm sure people can take issue with any or all of the examples I've given. But I don't think many people can argue that the Reds, from top to bottom, are a deeply flawed organization.

    Sadly, other than simply boycotting the product, there is little as fans can do. More sadly is that the Reds are way down the list of entertainment options and for people born in the 1980's they simply don't know winning baseball in Cincy. They don't care. Meanwhile, the older folks are starting to not care.

    Without something radical, I don't see how The Lost Decade isn't going to become The Lost Generations.
    Last edited by Ltlabner; 08-04-2009 at 12:37 PM.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

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    Let's ride BRM's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Orginzational Woes

    Scouting: Other teams seem to have the book on us from the get go, while we seem mystified when we face other teams. It's likely more of an issue of talent and a lineup of hackers, but the advance scouting area seems weak (at best).
    Team Clark has touched on this one in the past. It really boggles the mind that it's so noticable from those outside the organization but the Reds can't seem to get it fixed.

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    Passion for the game Team Clark's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Orginzational Woes

    Quote Originally Posted by BRM View Post
    Team Clark has touched on this one in the past. It really boggles the mind that it's so noticable from those outside the organization but the Reds can't seem to get it fixed.
    It hasn't changed at all. Just watch how they pitch Phillips, Gonzo, Nix, etc. Same sequence over and over. The only chance guys have is if it's right down the middle or a hanger. Gonzo got two DREAM pitches last night. Fortunately he hit them.
    It's absolutely pathetic that people can't have an opinion from actually watching games and supplementing that with stats. If you voice an opinion that doesn't fit into a black/white box you will get completely misrepresented and basically called a tobacco chewing traditionalist...
    Cedric 3/24/08

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    Kmac5 KoryMac5's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Orginzational Woes

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Clark View Post
    It hasn't changed at all. Just watch how they pitch Phillips, Gonzo, Nix, etc. Same sequence over and over. The only chance guys have is if it's right down the middle or a hanger. Gonzo got two DREAM pitches last night. Fortunately he hit them.
    Very evident in the dugout last night when Lee was giving Wells advice on how to pitch to Reds hitters during the top half of an inning.
    If you have a losing record at Reds games, please stop going.

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    My clutch is broken RichRed's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Orginzational Woes

    Is Marge "All scouts do is watch games" Schott still the owner?
    Last edited by RichRed; 08-04-2009 at 12:53 PM.
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    Re: Reds Orginzational Woes

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    Ownership: We've gone from Linder who didn't seem to care, to Bozo Bob who doesn't want to deal with the reality of the state of his company. He simply refuses to understand his "win now" attitude, while admirable, isn't helping his company.
    I think that Cast just wants to help, but is too unsophisticated to actually understand what's wrong. So he changes things that don't need changing, and makes those worse. Meanwhile, the things that do need changing go unattended. Also, the GMs want to follow his lead, and do goofy things as a result even though they're good GMs.

    it's tough to watch, but can't possibly change. we already have had two good GMs and so what can possibly change if ownership does not?
    2015, baby!

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    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Orginzational Woes

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    Edabb's favorite player of all time, Willy Taveras.
    Can't help but . I am sure Willy is a genuinely nice boy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    Without something radical, I don't see how The Lost Decade isn't going to become The Lost Generations.
    The time for something radical was a few years ago. Now we are faced with the following two realizations:

    • Contracts of size that aren't in Cincy's favor. Tough to deal, so you either have to eat some money or wait for them to expire.
    • If you want to rebuild, you need a couple of year waiting period. Just in time for guys like Votto and Cueto to become expensive and bolt.


    Let's just say that I bet not many GMs envy the position Walt is in. Can't add enough payroll to matter, can't shed the worst contracts.

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    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Orginzational Woes

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton View Post
    I think that Cast just wants to help, but is too unsophisticated to actually understand what's wrong. So he changes things that don't need changing, and makes those worse. Meanwhile, the things that do need changing go unattended. Also, the GMs want to follow his lead, and do goofy things as a result even though they're good GMs.

    it's tough to watch, but can't possibly change. we already have had two good GMs and so what can possibly change if ownership does not?

    The problem is that every owner is going to be pretty much the same. Any new owners are going to be pretty much like the old owners. Bob may care more than Carl but is caring and being incompetent any better than not caring and incompetent?
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    Re: Reds Orginzational Woes

    My biggest beef is that this organization doesn't do anything well anymore. They have no niche. In the 70's and 80's they were great at turning toolsy guys into ballplayers. In the 90's they had a great trader. Now they have GM who's main skill is buying, and they have no money.

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    Re: Reds Orginzational Woes

    Drafting-Scouting-Development ...

    Drafting: The Reds seem to exist on the "even-a-blind-squirrel-occasionally-finds-a-nut" method. We've come up with decent players like Kearns, Dunn, Votto, Cueto, Bailey, and Bruce. But one can't help but wonder if they were accidental picks or part of an actual planned strategy.

    Scouting: Seems the Reds' scouts look for apples when everyone else in baseball is looking for oranges.

    Development: Guys like Austin Kearns, Homer Bailey, and Jay Bruce ought to be tearing the league up right now. You have to wonder what their ceiling would be had they been drafted by the Indians, the Braves, or some other team who knew how to develop talent.
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    Re: Reds Orginzational Woes

    I don't think it's fair to compare previous ownership to this one. I have no doubts that Mr. Castellini wants to win here in Cincinnati.
    As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

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    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Orginzational Woes

    Quote Originally Posted by Redlegs View Post
    I don't think it's fair to compare previous ownership to this one. I have no doubts that Mr. Castellini wants to win here in Cincinnati.
    Sure he does. So did Lindner and Marge and every other owner except maybe John T. Brush. Wanting to and knowing how to are two different things.
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    Re: Reds Orginzational Woes

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    Sure he does. So did Lindner and Marge and every other owner except maybe John T. Brush. Wanting to and knowing how to are two different things.
    I'm not so sure Mr. Linder was ever committed to winning. Perhaps one could make the argument because he brought Griffey in here, but he didn't fulfill his promise to bring talent around him. Linder was about the bottom line, all the time. He would have never have brought a Scott Rolen type player in here.
    As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

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    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Orginzational Woes

    Quote Originally Posted by Redlegs View Post
    I'm not so sure Mr. Linder was ever committed to winning. Perhaps one could make the argument because he brought Griffey in here, but he didn't fulfill his promise to bring talent around him. Linder was about the bottom line, all the time. He would have never have brought a Scott Rolen type player in here.
    Except for when he brought Ken Griffey Jr. and re-signed Barry Larkin. Those guys were "Scott Rolen type" players (if what you mean by that term is "aging perennial All-Stars").

    Actually I think someone pointed out in another thread (and rightly so) that the Larkin extension might soon be seen as a precursor to the eventual Rolen extension Jocketty and others have already mentioned. If that happens, the Reds will be struggling to get out from under Rolen's deal even if they do succeed in shedding the Harang and Arroyo contracts.

    This franchise never learns.
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    This one's for you Edd Heath's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Orginzational Woes

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    Sure he does. So did Lindner and Marge and every other owner except maybe John T. Brush. Wanting to and knowing how to are two different things.
    I wonder about Sid Weil though....

    Some people play baseball. Baseball plays Jay Bruce.


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