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Thread: Every starter is pitching worse this year than last

  1. #1
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    Every starter is pitching worse this year than last

    despite better defense.

    True or false?

    Discuss.

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  3. #2
    Member The Baumer's Avatar
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    Re: Every starter is pitching worse this year than last

    I think I agree.

  4. #3
    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
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    Re: Every starter is pitching worse this year than last

    Do not totally agree. Can analyze it to death of course. Worse in what way?

    ERA
    Harang: 2008 = 4.86 ; 2009 = 4.52
    Cueto: 2008 = 4.81 ; 2009 = 4.23
    Bailey: 2008 = 7.93 ; 2009 = 7.06
    STAFF: 2008 = 4.97 ; 2009 = 4.94

    Strikeouts are down... 2008 = 7.47 K/9IP ; 2009 = 6.47 K/9IP.
    Walks have gone up... 2008 = 3.36 BB/9IP ; 2009 = 3.63 BB/9IP.
    Hits allowed are down... 2008 = 9.76 H/9IP ; 2009 = 9.52 H/IP.
    Walks up, hits down... 2008 = 1.46 WHIP ; 2009 = 1.46 WHIP.

    Better defense? 2008 = 0.65 E/G ; 2009 = 0.70 E/G. When looking only at errors it is close, but not better.

    The pitching has been nothing to write home about this year and I think it safe to say it has not lived up to the expectations going into the season.
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  5. #4
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Every starter is pitching worse this year than last

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFanAlways1966 View Post
    Do not totally agree. Can analyze it to death of course. Worse in what way?

    ERA
    Harang: 2008 = 4.86 ; 2009 = 4.52
    Cueto: 2008 = 4.81 ; 2009 = 4.23
    Bailey: 2008 = 7.93 ; 2009 = 7.06
    STAFF: 2008 = 4.97 ; 2009 = 4.94

    Strikeouts are down... 2008 = 7.47 K/9IP ; 2009 = 6.47 K/9IP.
    Walks have gone up... 2008 = 3.36 BB/9IP ; 2009 = 3.63 BB/9IP.
    Hits allowed are down... 2008 = 9.76 H/9IP ; 2009 = 9.52 H/IP.
    Walks up, hits down... 2008 = 1.46 WHIP ; 2009 = 1.46 WHIP.

    Better defense? 2008 = 0.65 E/G ; 2009 = 0.70 E/G. When looking only at errors it is close, but not better.

    The pitching has been nothing to write home about this year and I think it safe to say it has not lived up to the expectations going into the season.
    I don't know if I agree with the OP, but the DER is much, much better than last year. While the team might be committing similar number of errors, it's getting to a lot of balls this year it was not last year. It's definitely better as a whole.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: Every starter is pitching worse this year than last

    And let's not forget Arroyo....

    He's certainly having a stellar 2009

  7. #6
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Every starter is pitching worse this year than last

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    despite better defense.

    True or false?

    Discuss.
    Disagree...completely.

    Bailey is MUCH improved. Inconsistant...but I'd expect that from a young kid.

    Harang is throwing MUCH better than last year...just not getting the results. Not as good as 2 & 3 years ago, but much better than last season. He'll have a poor INNING and have no chance at a win.

    Cueto had a tremendous first half. He hit a bump mid season and has not been able to put it back together. I put a good portion of this on Dick Pole.

    Owings has been up and down a bit, but for a 5th starter he's been MUCH better than I expected.

    Arroyo DOES have 10 wins. How, I have NO idea. He's looked great one night and like garbage the next. But you come to expect it after a while. For a number 4 starter (which is what he is on a full, healthy Cincy staff), he's right about average. Overpaid for a #4, but adequet.

    Edinson....too much off season throwing crippled his season before it even began I think.
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    Re: Every starter is pitching worse this year than last

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    despite better defense.

    True or false?

    Discuss.


    Agreed and would love your insight and others on why this is.
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    Member membengal's Avatar
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    Re: Every starter is pitching worse this year than last

    Pole, Dick. Among the most useless carbon-based life forms to ever put on a Reds cap and call himself a coach.

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    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: Every starter is pitching worse this year than last

    I'm not sure I concur with your original statement, but I can say this that for the first time in my recent memory, I know that when a Reds pitcher gets behind, even by a few runs, there is very little chance (maybe even "virtually no chance") that this club can come from behind to win a game. I think we've done it twice all season, if that.

    So perhaps the club's premise of pitching and defense coming into the season wasn't faulty, even if not perfectly executed, between lacking one additional "big bat" and the plethora of injuries that has decimated the starting players on this club, we presently do not have the offense necessary to get back in games. Harang's outing the other night is a good example. It's never easy coming back from a 4 run deficit, but in the past this club had the hitters to have a good chance of doing it. Right now, we don't.

    So defense and pitching are a great concept, and probably the right approach. But without some modicum of an offense, your pitchers and your fielders have to be nearly perfect to give us a chance.
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    OOOOH YEEEAHHHH!! CarolinaRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: Every starter is pitching worse this year than last

    I think the whole "pitching and defense" mantra was a "we're not going to hit a lick this year, so we've got to tell the fans something this spring" smokescreen.

    And with that said, with this weenie offense, two runs can sometimes mean ballgame, which doesn't do the pitchers much good unless they're lights out. Take Harang on Monday night, his stuff's working, strikes out a bunch, but the one home run dooms him. Once it was 3-0, I was like, that's like 8-0 against a team with a capable offense.

  12. #11
    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
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    Re: Every starter is pitching worse this year than last

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    And let's not forget Arroyo....

    He's certainly having a stellar 2009
    Oh, you mean that guy who has the most quality starts on the team (true)?

    Either really good or really bad. This year he reminds me of the past with guys like Cory Lidle or Kyle Lohse. Either a QS or gets bombed. No in-between for Bronson.

    22 Starts
    Qual St: 12 G, 1.83 ERA, 1.04 WHIP.
    NON QS: 10 G, 10.95 ERA, 2.25 WHIP.
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  13. #12
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Every starter is pitching worse this year than last

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Cueto had a tremendous first half. He hit a bump mid season and has not been able to put it back together. I put a good portion of this on Dick Pole.
    The tremendous part or the bump part?
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    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: Every starter is pitching worse this year than last

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFanAlways1966 View Post
    Oh, you mean that guy who has the most quality starts on the team (true)?

    Either really good or really bad. This year he reminds me of the past with guys like Cory Lidle or Kyle Lohse. Either a QS or gets bombed. No in-between for Bronson.

    22 Starts
    Qual St: 12 G, 1.83 ERA, 1.04 WHIP.
    NON QS: 10 G, 10.95 ERA, 2.25 WHIP.
    Payin' a lot of coin for massive inconsistency.

    Arroyo's smoke and mirrors. He's not the type of guy I wanna pay $10+ Million a year to at best be a middle of the rotation type guy.

  15. #14
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: Every starter is pitching worse this year than last

    I think a telling remark came from Cueto last night and Harang the night before. With so little run support, the pressure is to be perfect and it's not working. Some have said that if that gets to a pitcher, he shouldn't be in the majors, but I disagree. They're all human, but if you know you're going to lose by allowing 3 or 4 runs (or even less!), it must be horrible for the starters. No mistakes, boys, and we'll win. What a horrible life.
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    Re: Every starter is pitching worse this year than last

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRedsFan View Post
    I think a telling remark came from Cueto last night and Harang the night before. With so little run support, the pressure is to be perfect and it's not working. Some have said that if that gets to a pitcher, he shouldn't be in the majors, but I disagree. They're all human, but if you know you're going to lose by allowing 3 or 4 runs (or even less!), it must be horrible for the starters. No mistakes, boys, and we'll win. What a horrible life.

    Curt Schilling talked about how throwing 90 pitches in a 2-1 game just wipes you out, whereas throwing 125 pitches in a 7-1 game is easy stuff.

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