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Thread: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

  1. #16
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    He also doesn't seem to like JJ Hardy as evidenced by his demotion today. Why not trade one dislike for another and potentially fill a need in the process?
    Because Hardy is a valuable commodity. Arroyo and his contract is closer to a liability. Besides Hardy's presence is insurance for Alcides Escobar and a month of pounding AAA pitching can only help Hardy's value.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Besides Hardy's presence is insurance for Alcides Escobar and a month of pounding AAA pitching can only help Hardy's value.
    Maybe, but it's not going to help Milwaukee's playoff push.
    Go BLUE!!!

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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    Maybe, but it's not going to help Milwaukee's playoff push.
    Arroyo is?

    The Yankees actually have playoff chances, payroll room, and a need for pitching and they passed on both Harang and Arroyo.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    The overwhelming preference for Harang over Arroyo is weird to me. Arroyo has more quality starts and a higher percentage of quality starts. His overall numbers are pretty close to Harang's, even with two massive stat-busting starts in there.

    At this point, I'd actually rather keep Arroyo. Although my preference remains to keep them both unless the return is real talent. I don't trust payflex.

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    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic View Post
    The overwhelming preference for Harang over Arroyo is weird to me. Arroyo has more quality starts and a higher percentage of quality starts. His overall numbers are pretty close to Harang's, even with two massive stat-busting starts in there.

    At this point, I'd actually rather keep Arroyo. Although my preference remains to keep them both unless the return is real talent. I don't trust payflex.
    All bad starts are "stat-busting." So, we just throw them out for the guy with the worst "stat-busting" starts and say "A & B are the same pitcher"?
    As far as which pitcher is better, I would say that Harang has the higher upside, doesn't have carpal tunnel, and would be more likely to give a solid playoff start or two than Arroyo.

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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Arroyo is?

    The Yankees actually have playoff chances, payroll room, and a need for pitching and they passed on both Harang and Arroyo.
    Yep, a lot more than the crap they're throwing out there now.
    Go BLUE!!!

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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    Yep, a lot more than the crap they're throwing out there now.
    Reasonable people could argue at length about whether Arroyo is even a meaningful upgrade for the Brewers rotation.

    He's almost certainly not a guy that one would argue the Brewers would target as an impact starter for their playoff push.

    This is all before even considering Arroyo's salary.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    All bad starts are "stat-busting." So, we just throw them out for the guy with the worst "stat-busting" starts and say "A & B are the same pitcher"?
    As far as which pitcher is better, I would say that Harang has the higher upside, doesn't have carpal tunnel, and would be more likely to give a solid playoff start or two than Arroyo.
    But those two starts do far more damage statistically than they do in the real world. They're just two losses. But they stain his numbers more than that.

    As for your second paragraph, sounds like a lot of opinion (other than the carpal tunnel thing, which is so overblown it's ridiculous ... hasn't been much of an issue in the second half). Like I said ... it's weird.

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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic View Post
    But those two starts do far more damage statistically than they do in the real world. They're just two losses. But they stain his numbers more than that.

    As for your second paragraph, sounds like a lot of opinion (other than the carpal tunnel thing, which is so overblown it's ridiculous ... hasn't been much of an issue in the second half). Like I said ... it's weird.
    I think TR is correct about the two going forward. Harang has better command and "make 'em miss" ability suggesting he'll likely be better than Arroyo going forward.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Reasonable people could argue at length about whether Arroyo is even a meaningful upgrade for the Brewers rotation.

    He's almost certainly not a guy that one would argue the Brewers would target as an impact starter for their playoff push.

    This is all before even considering Arroyo's salary.
    If you'll note I also included Drew Stubbs, who presumably has trade value as a BA Top 100 prospect. If I'm not mistaken, Cameron's contract is up after this year and this would allow them to get cheaper, especially after taking on Arroyo's contract.
    Go BLUE!!!

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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    If you'll note I also included Drew Stubbs, who presumably has trade value as a BA Top 100 prospect. If I'm not mistaken, Cameron's contract is up after this year and this would allow them to get cheaper, especially after taking on Arroyo's contract.
    So trading Hardy would be about the future rather than a playoff push?

    Are the Brewers giving up on Lorenzo Cain?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic View Post
    But those two starts do far more damage statistically than they do in the real world. They're just two losses. But they stain his numbers more than that.

    As for your second paragraph, sounds like a lot of opinion (other than the carpal tunnel thing, which is so overblown it's ridiculous ... hasn't been much of an issue in the second half). Like I said ... it's weird.
    If we have to throw out his honkers, then we have to throw out his gems. Sort of like throwing out the two high judges and two low judges in swimming or gymnastics?

    All the numbers count, although I'm sure if some GM is trying to justify a transaction with Arroyo, your argument would be thrown out there. To which the owner should say, "sorry, I do not want Arroyo throwing a couple of those honkers in the middle of the pennant race. For that kind of money, we need someone a bit more reliable."

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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    So trading Hardy would be about the future rather than a playoff push?

    Are the Brewers giving up on Lorenzo Cain?
    Nope.

    How does Stubbs impede the playoff push?

    The way I see it, this trade helps the Brewers for the playoff push and the future. Hardy isn't helping them with either.

    Coming into the year, Lorenzo Cain wasn't even a Top 5 prospect in a weak Brewers system. Since then, the former 17th round pick has OPSed .600 this year in A and AA. I'd hardly say they're counting on him anytime soon.
    Last edited by Benihana; 08-12-2009 at 03:41 PM.
    Go BLUE!!!

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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic View Post
    But those two starts do far more damage statistically than they do in the real world. They're just two losses. But they stain his numbers more than that.

    As for your second paragraph, sounds like a lot of opinion (other than the carpal tunnel thing, which is so overblown it's ridiculous ... hasn't been much of an issue in the second half). Like I said ... it's weird.
    If you took out Arroyos 1 inning and 9 earned runs he still has the higher ERA on the season.

    Both guys have pitched some pretty bad games this season.
    Harang will walk fewer guys and still has the ability to strike hitters out.
    We have also seen over the last couple of starts that Harangs velocity is up after he made some adjustments.
    I don't know if he will get back to being the same pitcher he was a few years ago but his fastball and slider have looked better.

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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    FWIW, Rosenthal dissed both of them on MLB Network last night as "yes, the Angels need help in the rotation, but I wouldn't be looking to either of those to provide it." (paraphrased)


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