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Thread: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

  1. #31
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    Nope.

    How does Stubbs impede the playoff push?

    The way I see it, this trade helps the Brewers for the playoff push and the future. Hardy isn't helping them with either.

    Lorenzo Cain isn't even a Top 5 prospect in a weak Brewers system. The former 17th round pick has OPSed .600 this year in A and AA. I'd hardly say they're counting on him anytime soon.
    You're missing the point-it's not that Stubbs impedes a playoff push. Taking on Arroyo in order to get Stubbs doesn't give any momentum to a playoff push.

    BTW, Cain's season is colored by an early knee injury. Blindly looking at his numbers this season isn't that telling.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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  3. #32
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    I would think Harang would be the kind of guy who with a mechanical adjustment or two, he would revert to his previous form. Unfortunately, I don't think he'll get that here.
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  4. #33
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    You're missing the point-it's not that Stubbs impedes a playoff push. Taking on Arroyo in order to get Stubbs doesn't give any momentum to a playoff push.

    BTW, Cain's season is colored by an early knee injury. Blindly looking at his numbers this season isn't that telling.
    Again, you're missing the point. Arroyo is materially better than what the Brewers are currently throwing out there. Add in Stubbs, factor in Hardy is being paid $4.5MM to play in the minors, and voila- a trade that makes sense.

    Knee injuries aren't good for CFers, and Cain wasn't terribly impressive before the knee injury. Either way, he's 3 for 19 lifetime in AAA (before the injury) so I don't think he will be helping the Brewers anytime soon. He is the equivalent of a pre-2009 Heisey, except if you wipe out Heisey's 2009 and replace it with a debilitating knee injury and a .600 OPS in A and AA. Sounds awesome!
    Last edited by Benihana; 08-12-2009 at 03:50 PM.
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  5. #34
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    Again, Arroyo is materially better than what the Brewers are currently throwing out there. Add in Stubbs, factor in Hardy is being paid $4.5MM to play in the minors, and voila- a trade that makes sense.

    Knee injuries aren't good for CFers, and Cain wasn't terribly impressive before the knee injury. Either way, he's 3 for 19 lifetime in AAA (before the injury) so I don't think he will be helping the Brewers anytime soon.
    I don't think Arroyo to Milwaukee makes much sense for the Brewers for the reasons already stated in this and other threads. Even if Arroyo reverted back to a guy who could do a FIP of 4.80 the rest of the way, that performance in roughly 8-10 remaining starts simply isn't anywhere near enough impact for the Brewers to make up a 6.5 game deficit. I understand your point and disagree with it. Again this is without even beginning to consider the money he is owed.

    In lieu of someone else adding something new to this particular issue or articulating why Arroyo's trade value has been underestimated, i'll beg out.
    Last edited by jojo; 08-12-2009 at 03:59 PM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Getting Harang or Arroyo would be important for the Brewers looking ahead to 2010. They are clearly in their window still, but it won't last if they can't come up with better starting pitching. There are no guarantees they could fill out the staff via free agency, so a trade now could be their best chance of shoring up the rotation for another good year in the NL Central in 2010.
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edd Roush View Post
    I hope we don't just give up Harang. I have thought he has started to turn it around these last couple of starts.

    On the other hand, I think if the Angels just assumed Arroyo's full salary, I would be happy with that. Of course, I would prefer throwing in a bunch of money and coming back with Brandon Wood, but I don't know if they are going to give him up.
    I sincerely doubt that Jocketty/BCast just give up Harang. Arroyo on the other hand......

  8. #37
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic View Post
    The overwhelming preference for Harang over Arroyo is weird to me. Arroyo has more quality starts and a higher percentage of quality starts. His overall numbers are pretty close to Harang's, even with two massive stat-busting starts in there.

    At this point, I'd actually rather keep Arroyo. Although my preference remains to keep them both unless the return is real talent. I don't trust payflex.
    Agree completely. Arroyo is a better bet going forward IMO.

    Given the state of the staff, I'd keep them both and shop Cordero in the off-season to save money.
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  9. #38
    Greatness In The Making RedLegSuperStar's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic View Post
    The overwhelming preference for Harang over Arroyo is weird to me. Arroyo has more quality starts and a higher percentage of quality starts. His overall numbers are pretty close to Harang's, even with two massive stat-busting starts in there.

    At this point, I'd actually rather keep Arroyo. Although my preference remains to keep them both unless the return is real talent. I don't trust payflex.
    I can give you my reasoning why I'd rather have Harang over Arroyo.. Harang has had years of showing "Ace" status. Yes Arroyo has been very consistant over his career he is still a #3 pitcher at best. Harang IMO isn't getting any kind of run support what so ever. I'd like to have both but money seems to be an issue with this team yet they outbid themselves for Taveras and broke the bank for CoCo. The organization comes out and says it has payroll flexability and uses 11 million on a aging oft injured Rolen and giving up two solid arms for him. I think the economy will be a factor in FA agin this yer and the Reds can probably get a decent servicable starter for nearly half of what one of Arroyo or Harang is being paid. Brad Penny and Rich Harden would be my targets.
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  10. #39
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Agree completely. Arroyo is a better bet going forward IMO.

    Given the state of the staff, I'd keep them both and shop Cordero in the off-season to save money.
    My take as well. I'd rather have Arroyo for next year and trade Harang.

    I'm not willing to trade either as a pure salary dump though. We've got to get fair talent in return, otherwise we are simply subtracting talent from the team.
    I'm in no big hurry to see Lehr or a Fogg type replace Arroyo or Harang. We're already down a pitcher next year with Volquez out.
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Agree completely. Arroyo is a better bet going forward IMO.

    Given the state of the staff, I'd keep them both and shop Cordero in the off-season to save money.
    I don't get this. Nobody has talked about it but Harang is pretty close to being the same dude we all loved in 06 and 07...

    06: 3.89 xFIP, 8.5 K/9, 2.2 BB/9
    07: 3.81 xFIP, 9.0 K/9, 2.1 BB/9
    09: 3.85 xFIP 7.9 K/9, 2.3 BB/9

    Harang is still a good pitcher, he's pretty durable, and I don't have a problem paying him well next year.

  12. #41
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by SMcGavin View Post
    I don't get this. Nobody has talked about it but Harang is pretty close to being the same dude we all loved in 06 and 07...

    06: 3.89 xFIP, 8.5 K/9, 2.2 BB/9
    07: 3.81 xFIP, 9.0 K/9, 2.1 BB/9
    09: 3.85 xFIP 7.9 K/9, 2.3 BB/9

    Harang is still a good pitcher, he's pretty durable, and I don't have a problem paying him well next year.
    I agree completely. Harang is a significantly better pitcher than Arroyo IMHO. He's a tick below what he was but geesh you'd think he's fell off a cliff given the lack of love.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  13. #42
    GR8NESS WMR's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Yeah I'm somewhat amazed that folks would prefer Arroyo over Harang. Don't really get that at all. Harang is a much better bet for 2010 than Arroyo, IMO.
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  14. #43
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    My take as well. I'd rather have Arroyo for next year and trade Harang.

    I'm not willing to trade either as a pure salary dump though. We've got to get fair talent in return, otherwise we are simply subtracting talent from the team.
    I'm in no big hurry to see Lehr or a Fogg type replace Arroyo or Harang. We're already down a pitcher next year with Volquez out.
    I could do it as a salary dump if there is a plan to spend the offset money saved in the offseason...same thing as a trade to me. I'm not saying I would do it, but 10-12 million could buy a lot this offseason if spent well.

  15. #44
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by SMcGavin View Post
    I don't get this. Nobody has talked about it but Harang is pretty close to being the same dude we all loved in 06 and 07...

    06: 3.89 xFIP, 8.5 K/9, 2.2 BB/9
    07: 3.81 xFIP, 9.0 K/9, 2.1 BB/9
    09: 3.85 xFIP 7.9 K/9, 2.3 BB/9

    Harang is still a good pitcher, he's pretty durable, and I don't have a problem paying him well next year.
    I agree. I'd like to keep Harang unless the Reds get a great offer.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  16. #45
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by SMcGavin View Post
    I don't get this. Nobody has talked about it but Harang is pretty close to being the same dude we all loved in 06 and 07...

    06: 3.89 xFIP, 8.5 K/9, 2.2 BB/9
    07: 3.81 xFIP, 9.0 K/9, 2.1 BB/9
    09: 3.85 xFIP 7.9 K/9, 2.3 BB/9

    Harang is still a good pitcher, he's pretty durable, and I don't have a problem paying him well next year.
    But the problem with that is that he has not been the same pitcher.

    His xFIP has stayed the same, but his actual production has lessened.

    If this was for half a season, I'd say it would even out. I might even say it after one season. But after nearly two full seasons? Especially when his defense actually got better this season?

    I think you have to doubt how accurate xFIP is in this case, and wonder if Harang will ever produce like he did two years ago.
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