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Thread: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

  1. #46
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    But the problem with that is that he has not been the same pitcher.

    His xFIP has stayed the same, but his actual production has lessened.

    If this was for half a season, I'd say it would even out. I might even say it after one season. But after nearly two full seasons? Especially when his defense actually got better this season?

    I think you have to doubt how accurate xFIP is in this case, and wonder if Harang will ever produce like he did two years ago.
    There are other variables, no? Like run support, for example?
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

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  3. #47
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    There are other variables, no? Like run support, for example?
    I'm talking ERA and WHIP, not wins. His ERA and WHIP these last two years have been almost the same as Arroyo's.

    If you believe in this stat, his quality starts are down too.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  4. #48
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by WMR View Post
    Yeah I'm somewhat amazed that folks would prefer Arroyo over Harang. Don't really get that at all. Harang is a much better bet for 2010 than Arroyo, IMO.
    Maybe the folks that prefer Arroyo over Harang are just looking for a variety of skillsets?

    Harang pitches.

    Arroyo plays guitar and sorta pitches.

    2 is better than 1, or something like that.

  5. #49
    GR8NESS WMR's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    Maybe the folks that prefer Arroyo over Harang are just looking for a variety of skillsets?

    Harang pitches.

    Arroyo plays guitar and sorta pitches.

    2 is better than 1, or something like that.
    hell yeah, who else is going to cut such awesome promos for jtm burgers?

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  6. #50
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    I really hoped they wouldn't be together again, ever again...

  7. #51
    SERP deep cover ops WebScorpion's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Why is everyone convinced JJ Hardy is a good defensive SS? Every time I've seen him play he seems to have questionable range...I've always thought he was just part of the Brewers standard all offense-no defense philosophy which doesn't seem to achieve much more than a shot at a wild card berth each year. I don't mind giving up Arroyo and/or Harang, but Hardy would not be my target...I'd really try to get them out of my division, if not out of our league. Either one of them could contend for the Cy Young award if they faced our offense regularly.

    "Okay you guys, pair up in threes!" --Yogi Berra

  8. #52
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic View Post
    The overwhelming preference for Harang over Arroyo is weird to me.

    At this point, I'd actually rather keep Arroyo. Although my preference remains to keep them both unless the return is real talent. I don't trust payflex.
    I agree. Arroyo sure has his ups and downs and although I've always thought Harang had more upside it seems Arron has been going down hill. I hope I'm wrong but Harang does'nt look to me like the same pitcher that he was in 2007.
    Last edited by Ron Madden; 08-14-2009 at 04:19 AM.

  9. #53
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by SMcGavin View Post
    I don't get this. Nobody has talked about it but Harang is pretty close to being the same dude we all loved in 06 and 07...

    06: 3.89 xFIP, 8.5 K/9, 2.2 BB/9
    07: 3.81 xFIP, 9.0 K/9, 2.1 BB/9
    09: 3.85 xFIP 7.9 K/9, 2.3 BB/9

    Harang is still a good pitcher, he's pretty durable, and I don't have a problem paying him well next year.
    I'm into Peripherals (though I don't really care for stats derived from them like FIP,X-FIP or Runs Created) and use this method for judging guys I don't see pitch all the time, but in the case of Arroyo and Harang, here is what I see. Arroyo is more likely to have a few uber-stinkers that really skew his stats as compared to his overall performance, but I also think he is more likely to pitch deep into games more often at this point while putting up a major league caliber performance that gives his team a chance to win well into the late innings (while mixing in more dominant performances as well) than Harang is. Over 32 starts, I think Arroyo is more likely to pitch more games that give his team a good chance to win than Harang will and for me its about winning games.

    OTOH, if I were playing fantasy baseball and had to have one on my team, I'd take Harang since Arroyo's stinkers would be more harmful. The Reds don't play fantasy baseball though and its about winning games. I just happen to think Arroyo is more likely to make that happen more often over a season than Harang will at this point in both of their careers. Maybe its the pills

    Given Volquez injury, this team probably needs to keep them both since I just don't see the Reds getting an upgrade for the money avaialable even if these contracts are purged somehow.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  10. #54
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    IMO in a team sense Arroyo has more value. I agree with mth, every once in a while he will throw up a stinker, but he puts up stretches where he is dominant.

  11. #55
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    You're missing the point-it's not that Stubbs impedes a playoff push. Taking on Arroyo in order to get Stubbs doesn't give any momentum to a playoff push.

    BTW, Cain's season is colored by an early knee injury. Blindly looking at his numbers this season isn't that telling.
    Do you still think Arroyo could contribute nothing to Milwaukee's playoff push?

    I see over 50 innings of 2.50 ERA and 1.02 WHIP that suggest otherwise.
    Go BLUE!!!

  12. #56
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    Do you still think Arroyo could contribute nothing to Milwaukee's playoff push?

    I see over 50 innings of 2.50 ERA and 1.02 WHIP that suggest otherwise.
    Yes.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  13. #57
    Will post for food BuckeyeRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Arroyo reminds me of Kyle Lohse when he was here.

    1/3 of his starts are stinkers
    1/3 of his starts are ok
    1/3 of his starts are super

    I never could understand the angst over Lohse on this board and thought he was worthy of a contract a couple years ago.

    A rotation of....

    Harang
    Cueto
    Lohse
    Arroyo
    Owings/Bailey/Lehr/insert AAAA starter

    would be okay to me if the offense could score a few runs. Throw in a healthy Volquez and you might not have a true #1, but you have a boatload of #2's and 3's.

  14. #58
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    1/3 is very high for "super" Kyle Lohse starts as a Red. Lohse comps is more like Cueto--unhittable for 3-5 innings, but you knew a blow up was inevitable, it came fast, and it came hard.

  15. #59
    Will post for food BuckeyeRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    1/3 is very high for "super" Kyle Lohse starts as a Red. Lohse comps is more like Cueto--unhittable for 3-5 innings, but you knew a blow up was inevitable, it came fast, and it came hard.
    I posted this two years ago after about 18 starts through the 2007 season. I think those 6 starts would qualify as "super". Of course, it all depends on what your definition of "super" is, but I think Kyle Lohse has been nearly unhittable when he's been "on" the past few years.

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg View Post
    Not to turn this into a Kyle Lohse thread, but I think you can place his 18 starts into three categories.

    1. Good - Great
    2. Average
    3. Bad - Really Bad

    He's had 6 of each this year. I wouldn't categorize his six "average" starts as "bombing".

    In all 6 "average" starts, he's gone at least 6 innings and given up on average 3 ER. I'll take that every day from a Kyle Lohse and those are his 6 "average" starts. What he does in his 6 "good-great" starts, not many other pitchers in the league have done this year.



    1. (6) Good - Great starts:

    48.1 IP
    32 H
    8 BB
    33 K
    .55 ERA
    .83 WHIP
    5-0 record


    2. (6) Average starts:

    39.2 IP
    43 H
    10 BB
    20 K
    4.31 ERA
    1.34 WHIP
    0-4 record

    3. (6) Bad - Really Bad starts:

    26.2 IP
    51 H
    11 BB
    17 K
    11.82 ERA
    2.32 WHIP
    0-6 record
    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg View Post
    Two-thirds of the time it's quality. I think you could name the same for many #3-5 starters around the league.

    In 12 of his 18 starts:

    88 IP
    75 H
    18 BB
    53 K
    2.35 ERA
    1.06 WHIP
    5-4 record

    With 6 awful starts. Inconsistent? Perhaps. But, the inconsistency seems worth it for a 67% chance that you get the numbers above.
    Last edited by BuckeyeRedleg; 08-14-2009 at 11:35 AM.

  16. #60
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Angels Interested In Arroyo, Harang?

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg View Post
    I posted this two years ago after about 18 starts through the 2007 season. I think those 6 starts would qualify as "super". Of course, it all depends on what your definition of "super" is, but I think Kyle Lohse has been nearly unhittable when he's been "on" the past few years.
    You said while Lohse was a Red. I didn't know you were cherry picking 18 starts.


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