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Thread: More kind words from Dunn as he makes his return to Cincy

  1. #31
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: More kind words from Dunn as he makes his return to Cincy

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    So what about the guys not named Gomes or Nix that have played LF for the Reds in 2009?

    How have they fared?

    Are you just going to ignore them?
    There's no room to include them. People are saying "the Reds have not found suitable replacements." Actually, in terms of production, they have.

    In other terms...

    I am so tired of hearing, "The Reds have not replaced Adam Dunn." "Woe is us." "Oh how I wish the Reds had not traded Dunn." "We took such a hit to the offense."

    All the while, here you have a guy ripping the cover off the ball, who by coincidence, plays the same position. It's a slap in the face to him to say the Reds have not found anyone to replace Dunn. They may have, but people are ignoring him.

    Let me put it this way:

    Say you are told you have two options. One is 29 years old, the other is 28 years old (both getting into the peak years of their career, obviously). Both are poor defenders.

    Player A has a consistent, proven track record. His 3-year averages with the club:

    .379 / .520 / 899 OPS (6.4% HR rate)

    Player B has not been consistent, though has shown upside before. His current production in a couple hundred plate appearances:

    .357 / .584 / 941 OPS (7.9% HR rate)

    Taking away the names. Only knowing that Player A clearly has a proven track record, but Player B is slightly younger and just now hitting his peak, you're still probably inclined to go with Player A. Right? That's safe and clearly logical.

    But throw in this:

    Player A is going to make $10 mil for your team
    Player B can probably be had for around $2 mil or one-fifth of the cost.

    I'm no economics major, but what's the better value? I know it's easy to see which one has less risk.

    Gomes is no Adam Dunn. But for crying out loud the dude is carrying the Reds offense right now, and people want to continue to cry over spilled milk about how the Reds didn't keep/replace Dunn. Gomes might not be able to continue this. That's still up in the air. But he's just now hitting his prime, where players tend to break out, and he's carrying the offense.

    It's really a shame people can't give him credit and give the organization credit for getting him. Instead, they want to continue to harp on Dunn being gone and ignore that the franchise could have potentially found themselves an excellent player for cheap that wants to play for the organization without costing a pretty penny.

    Maybe that's just too simplistic. But as long as Gomes continues to mash, I refuse to toe the company line that the Reds didn't do anything to replace the Dunn production.
    Last edited by Brutus; 08-18-2009 at 12:51 AM.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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  3. #32
    GR8NESS WMR's Avatar
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    Re: More kind words from Dunn as he makes his return to Cincy

    Keep pinning your hopes on wishes and dreams rather than actual proven talent, THE CINCINNATI REDS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Calipari is not, nor has he ever been accused or "caught", cheating. He himself turned in one of his players (Camby) for dealing with an agent to get one Final Four overturned. The other is all on the NCAA and Rose. (IF Rose cheated.)
    "Cheering for Kentucky is like watching Star Wars and hoping Darth Vader chokes an ewok"


  4. #33
    GR8NESS WMR's Avatar
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    Re: More kind words from Dunn as he makes his return to Cincy

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    Three different players made remarks to that affect. Bronson Arroyo said "everyone knew he was probably going to ask for $100 million."

    I know it's not popular around these parts to say, but Dunn was not going to be an option no matter how it was sliced.
    You're seriously going to try and quote Bronson Arroyo as a source into Dunn's contract negotiations?

    And to your 2nd comment, pure supposition on your part with no tangible proof from Dunn whatsoever.
    Last edited by WMR; 08-18-2009 at 01:00 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Calipari is not, nor has he ever been accused or "caught", cheating. He himself turned in one of his players (Camby) for dealing with an agent to get one Final Four overturned. The other is all on the NCAA and Rose. (IF Rose cheated.)
    "Cheering for Kentucky is like watching Star Wars and hoping Darth Vader chokes an ewok"


  5. #34
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: More kind words from Dunn as he makes his return to Cincy

    Quote Originally Posted by WMR View Post
    You're seriously going to try and quote Bronson Arroyo as a source?

    And to your 2nd comment, pure supposition on your part with no tangible proof whatsoever.
    You can bury your head in the sand all you want, but Arroyo is far from the only one that has said it. I could sit here and go down through the many people that have made comments about Dunn or Dunn's situation with the organization. To which, you'll simply try to discredit every single person (as you just have with Arroyo).

    People have been ignoring everything with Dunn for the last few years. It's an exercise in futility to have an opinion because everything gets dismissed and passed off as a strawman argument in the name of batting average and strikeouts. Nevermind that not everyone has an opinion that does not center around those two issues.

    I respect Dunn. I think the guy is a good dude. And I think he's clearly an asset more so than a liability. I could sit here and go over, what I believe to be legitimate reasons to be critical of him, but it completely misses the point.

    Dunn was not planning on re-signing, and if he did, the Reds were going to have to break the bank. This was echoed by so many people it's not funny. What's more is that for as enormously cherished as he is here, he had little or no market value last year during the trade season, nor this year in the offseason (though I think economy played a small part this year). But at the time, the Reds had to play the percentages and it seemed very much as if he was going to command a lot.

    For a team financially strapped as it is, not good to gamble on that. The Reds instead chose to play those odds and when a small market formed for him in August, they unloaded him for a decent starting pitcher and a couple of moderate prospects. They certainly did not do a whole lot in the offseason, but they did manage to find a player at the same position that, has been producing since being given a chance A) first by upper-level management and then B) by field management.

    It may seem trivial now, but if said player continues producing, and the flexibility allowed the Reds to upgrade third and possibly make one or two more transactions this offseason, it's then crazy to say the long-range affects of that decision did not pay dividends.

    He's a good player. I wish him the best. I just wish people would stop holding the organization hostage over him. There's clearly plenty to be critical over without his inclusion.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  6. #35
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: More kind words from Dunn as he makes his return to Cincy

    Adam Dunn might have been making plans to "break the bank," but the fact is he ended up signing a very affordable, short-term contract with a lousy team. The Reds could have matched that deal, but didn't.

    But I'm not as upset about that as I am about the front office's attitude about the whole affair. "It was time to move on" is basically their way of saying, "We've already decided that we don't want this particular .900 OPS player at even a reasonable price. We're closing this door and opening a new door that leads to Willy Taveras."
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

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    GR8NESS WMR's Avatar
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    Re: More kind words from Dunn as he makes his return to Cincy

    I respect your opinion, Brutus, but I'm sorry, I simply don't accept that Dunn was looking to leave the Reds. If the Reds had tendered him an offer of 12 million per season over a span of 4-5 years I absolutely believe he would have gladly remained a Cincinnati Red. And he would be worth every penny of that contract.

    I have not seen any evidence to the contrary that seems at all credible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Calipari is not, nor has he ever been accused or "caught", cheating. He himself turned in one of his players (Camby) for dealing with an agent to get one Final Four overturned. The other is all on the NCAA and Rose. (IF Rose cheated.)
    "Cheering for Kentucky is like watching Star Wars and hoping Darth Vader chokes an ewok"


  8. #37
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: More kind words from Dunn as he makes his return to Cincy

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool View Post
    Adam Dunn might have been making plans to "break the bank," but the fact is he ended up signing a very affordable, short-term contract with a lousy team. The Reds could have matched that deal, but didn't.

    But I'm not as upset about that as I am about the front office's attitude about the whole affair. "It was time to move on" is basically their way of saying, "We've already decided that we don't want this particular .900 OPS player at even a reasonable price. We're closing this door and opening a new door that leads to Willy Taveras."
    I'm in 100% agreement with Johnny on this.

    The main problem with this organization is their ineptitude in identifying and developing talent and the haphazard way they spend their money. There is nothing wrong with paying Productive Players.

    Why do he Reds spend a boatload of cash on a roster full of Non Productive Players Every Season? Is it because they have no clue? Or is it because those non productive players might be favorites of the guys in the radio booth, the callers to 700 WLW Sportstalk, or that damned old Banana Phone?

    Sometimes I wonder if that's not the case. Sorry for the rant.

  9. #38
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: More kind words from Dunn as he makes his return to Cincy

    Quote Originally Posted by WMR View Post
    I respect your opinion, Brutus, but I'm sorry, I simply don't accept that Dunn was looking to leave the Reds. If the Reds had tendered him an offer of 12 million per season over a span of 4-5 years I absolutely believe he would have gladly remained a Cincinnati Red. And he would be worth every penny of that contract.

    I have not seen any evidence to the contrary that seems at all credible.
    I agree.

    Adam Dunn is having another great year.
    The Reds offense is historically awful.
    The team is worse than last year.
    But the Reds saved some money.
    Woohoo!

  10. #39
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    Re: More kind words from Dunn as he makes his return to Cincy

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Madden View Post
    I'm in 100% agreement with Johnny on this.

    The main problem with this organization is their ineptitude in identifying and developing talent and the haphazard way they spend their money. There is nothing wrong with paying Productive Players.

    Why do he Reds spend a boatload of cash on a roster full of Non Productive Players Every Season? Is it because they have no clue? Or is it because those non productive players might be favorites of the guys in the radio booth, the callers to 700 WLW Sportstalk, or that damned old Banana Phone?

    Sometimes I wonder if that's not the case. Sorry for the rant.
    Yeah, I have never understood why people think it is smart to avoid paying good players a fair-market salary.

    The Reds' problem has nothing to do with paying their good players. The problem is the money given to bad players.

  11. #40
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: More kind words from Dunn as he makes his return to Cincy

    Quote Originally Posted by WMR View Post
    I respect your opinion, Brutus, but I'm sorry, I simply don't accept that Dunn was looking to leave the Reds. If the Reds had tendered him an offer of 12 million per season over a span of 4-5 years I absolutely believe he would have gladly remained a Cincinnati Red. And he would be worth every penny of that contract.

    I have not seen any evidence to the contrary that seems at all credible.
    Well, I'm not suggesting he was looking for the first opportunity he had to leave town. I really don't believe that was the case.

    But what I'm saying is that a lot of people made comments that he was going to ask for money he knew the Reds were not able (or at very least going) to pay. Whether he was intentionally pricing himself out of the picture or simply trying to leverage it, I don't know. But a lot of people commented that Dunn re-signing was not a realistic thing, if not in part by his expected demands, the club's expected reluctance or both.

    Even in hindsight, though, he got $20 mil in a sluggish economic situation. Given when the Reds traded him the financial situation was not quite as depressed, it was perfectly reasonable at that time to assume his demands were much, much higher. Arroyo said he was talking $100 mil in a large multi-year deal. While that was not ever going to be what it wound up as, I can't say I blame the Reds for balking at figures even close to half that.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  12. #41
    Member cincrazy's Avatar
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    Re: More kind words from Dunn as he makes his return to Cincy

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    There's no room to include them. People are saying "the Reds have not found suitable replacements." Actually, in terms of production, they have.

    In other terms...

    I am so tired of hearing, "The Reds have not replaced Adam Dunn." "Woe is us." "Oh how I wish the Reds had not traded Dunn." "We took such a hit to the offense."

    All the while, here you have a guy ripping the cover off the ball, who by coincidence, plays the same position. It's a slap in the face to him to say the Reds have not found anyone to replace Dunn. They may have, but people are ignoring him.

    Let me put it this way:

    Say you are told you have two options. One is 29 years old, the other is 28 years old (both getting into the peak years of their career, obviously). Both are poor defenders.

    Player A has a consistent, proven track record. His 3-year averages with the club:

    .379 / .520 / 899 OPS (6.4% HR rate)

    Player B has not been consistent, though has shown upside before. His current production in a couple hundred plate appearances:

    .357 / .584 / 941 OPS (7.9% HR rate)

    Taking away the names. Only knowing that Player A clearly has a proven track record, but Player B is slightly younger and just now hitting his peak, you're still probably inclined to go with Player A. Right? That's safe and clearly logical.

    But throw in this:

    Player A is going to make $10 mil for your team
    Player B can probably be had for around $2 mil or one-fifth of the cost.

    I'm no economics major, but what's the better value? I know it's easy to see which one has less risk.

    Gomes is no Adam Dunn. But for crying out loud the dude is carrying the Reds offense right now, and people want to continue to cry over spilled milk about how the Reds didn't keep/replace Dunn. Gomes might not be able to continue this. That's still up in the air. But he's just now hitting his prime, where players tend to break out, and he's carrying the offense.

    It's really a shame people can't give him credit and give the organization credit for getting him. Instead, they want to continue to harp on Dunn being gone and ignore that the franchise could have potentially found themselves an excellent player for cheap that wants to play for the organization without costing a pretty penny.

    Maybe that's just too simplistic. But as long as Gomes continues to mash, I refuse to toe the company line that the Reds didn't do anything to replace the Dunn production.
    Well, to play devil's advocate here, the Reds could have kept Dunn in left, stil signed Gomes, and platooned him in right with Jay Bruce. Now we have an outfield we can talk about offensively.

  13. #42
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: More kind words from Dunn as he makes his return to Cincy

    Another Dunn thread, gotta love it.

    To be honest I don't follow Dunn like many on RZ do. He isn't a Red so I have very little rooting interest in him and the Nats are god awful so I really have no interest in watching their games either. In the few games I have seen them play, against the Reds, and the clips I have seen on ESPN I did notice him hitting HR's and playing 1b. Granted I like Votto at 1b and really wouldn't move him for anyone not named Pujols, but Dunn is much less of a defensive liability while playing 1b.

    Dunn's last season as a Red he made $15M and put up a line of this .236/.386/.513, throw in the fact that he was one of the worst defensive outfielders in the game he wasn't worth the long term investment he was demanding. Granted the collapse in the financial market reduced his value quite a bit but that was long after the Dunn/Cincy train had taken off.

    When watching a game this past weekend I saw Dunn's line flash across the screen and was shocked. He is currently at .285/.417/.580. I was shocked. He hasn't put up a line that good since the first half of his first full season as a Red. He has become a better hitter while keeping his power numbers up. He is becoming everything that I had wanted him to become. He is hitting for a better average, getting on base, and slugging the same. It left me kind of amazed that he is having such a good season, while also pissed that he is finally putting it all together the season after he gets out of Cincy. IMO if Dunn keeps playing the way he is he is worth every penny of his pretty poor contract, and should be in for a big payday in 2011. Note to Donkey, you may want to start looking for a competent agent.

  14. #43
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: More kind words from Dunn as he makes his return to Cincy

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    There's no room to include them. People are saying "the Reds have not found suitable replacements." Actually, in terms of production, they have.

    In other terms...

    I am so tired of hearing, "The Reds have not replaced Adam Dunn." "Woe is us." "Oh how I wish the Reds had not traded Dunn." "We took such a hit to the offense."

    All the while, here you have a guy ripping the cover off the ball, who by coincidence, plays the same position. It's a slap in the face to him to say the Reds have not found anyone to replace Dunn. They may have, but people are ignoring him.

    Let me put it this way:

    Say you are told you have two options. One is 29 years old, the other is 28 years old (both getting into the peak years of their career, obviously). Both are poor defenders.

    Player A has a consistent, proven track record. His 3-year averages with the club:

    .379 / .520 / 899 OPS (6.4% HR rate)

    Player B has not been consistent, though has shown upside before. His current production in a couple hundred plate appearances:

    .357 / .584 / 941 OPS (7.9% HR rate)

    Taking away the names. Only knowing that Player A clearly has a proven track record, but Player B is slightly younger and just now hitting his peak, you're still probably inclined to go with Player A. Right? That's safe and clearly logical.

    But throw in this:

    Player A is going to make $10 mil for your team
    Player B can probably be had for around $2 mil or one-fifth of the cost.

    I'm no economics major, but what's the better value? I know it's easy to see which one has less risk.

    Gomes is no Adam Dunn. But for crying out loud the dude is carrying the Reds offense right now, and people want to continue to cry over spilled milk about how the Reds didn't keep/replace Dunn. Gomes might not be able to continue this. That's still up in the air. But he's just now hitting his prime, where players tend to break out, and he's carrying the offense.

    It's really a shame people can't give him credit and give the organization credit for getting him. Instead, they want to continue to harp on Dunn being gone and ignore that the franchise could have potentially found themselves an excellent player for cheap that wants to play for the organization without costing a pretty penny.

    Maybe that's just too simplistic. But as long as Gomes continues to mash, I refuse to toe the company line that the Reds didn't do anything to replace the Dunn production.
    Step away from your strawman for a second.... who's not giving Gomes credit or the Reds FO credit for bringing in Gomes?

    I'm still trying to understand why you refuse to include people not named Nix and Gomes in the total LF production for 2009. Those 2 aren't the only guys to play LF for the Reds this year, so why wouldn't we include everyone to get a complete picture? woy posted the LF production as a whole, and our LFers (yup, all of them) have put up the line of .233/.299/.395/.694. That's significantly less production than Dunn's done all by his lonesome this year.

    Pretty sure that's why people have said we haven't replaced Dunn, b/c the truth of the matter is that we haven't replaced Dunn.

    Now, Gomes is putting together a solid season, but he's a platoon player. He's had less PAs than Adam Rosales, 206 to 190 respectively. So, while Gomes is showing to be a viable platoon option, he's still only producing in limited capacity. That's not discounting what he's done so far this season, but rather putting it in context. So, I'm not sure where you're drawing the conclusion that fans aren't happy with Gomes' production, or that he's not having a good season. I'm sure as heck not ignoring him or slapping him in the face.

    The conclusion you should draw is that we haven't replaced Dunn's offense, and we did take a hit to the total offense. I mean you've watched the Reds this year, and you're telling me they couldn't use Dunn's bat in the lineup, and that ALL of our LFers have equaled or surpassed Dunn's production?

    I guess I just can't wrap my head around you falling in love with Gomes' limited PAs, and saying that due to the financial difference between Gomes' and Dunn's contracts that they are now somehow equal. I hope Gomes keeps doing what he's doing, but at the same time I don't honestly know what to expect from him b/c we've only seen a small sample size from him in Cincinnati, and aside from 2005, nothing in his career numbers suggest he's capable of sustaining his current lines. I root for him to succeed b/c he's a Cincinnati Red, but at the same time I need to be realistic and know that he hasn't come close to replacing Adam Dunn, even if you give it the economic financial spin.

    Hell, Gomes is one of the only guys I like on this team.

  15. #44
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: More kind words from Dunn as he makes his return to Cincy

    Quote Originally Posted by WMR View Post
    Keep pinning your hopes on wishes and dreams rather than actual proven talent, THE CINCINNATI REDS.
    The Reds sure do love them some "what could be" rather than "what is".

    How are all those prospects working out for us?

    Think they couldn't net us some actual talent?

    I guess the Reds value hypothetical/potential talent over proven results.

  16. #45
    High five! nate's Avatar
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    Re: More kind words from Dunn as he makes his return to Cincy

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    I realize that. But I consider those two the LF position. Anyone else that has played there has been due to managerial incompetence. It's not fair to say the Reds have not found suitable replacement for the position, because clearly they have - at least to this point. Usage of such replacement(s) is another issue altogether.
    If Gomes had the number of innings and ABs that Nix has in LF, I might be more convinced.

    I say, we're still on the road to figuring it out.
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"


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