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Thread: Restoring the rosters: No. 30 - Cincinnati

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    Member redsfandan's Avatar
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    Restoring the rosters: No. 30 - Cincinnati

    Restoring the rosters: No. 30 - Cincinnati Wed Aug 05,2009 6:07 PM ET By Matthew Pouliot

    I'm kicking off a new series reviewing what all 30 teams would look like if they included only players originally signed by the club. The ground rules:

    1. Players are assigned to the team with which they made their professional or U.S. debuts. Japanese and Cuban imports are being included. As far as I can tell, Angel Guzman is the only player considered who signed with a team but never played for them at any level. As a result, he's listed with the Cubs, rather than the Royals.

    2. Officially retired players are ineligible, but players simply out of the league are fair game. That includes players currently in Japan.

    There aren't going to be any scientific rankings here. I'm choosing players based on some combination of 2008-09 performance and 2010 projected value. Injured players are being included if, in my personal opinion, they're good bets to bounce back. For instance, Tim Hudson will lead Oakland's rotation, while Jeremy Bonderman gets viewed as a fifth-starter candidate and Mark Mulder won't be showing up at all.

    I'll be ranking the assembled rosters from No. 30 to No. 1. The plan is to cover two teams per day.

    So, let's jump right in. Two teams earned consideration for the bottom spot, but it was truly an easy choice in the end. Ladies and gentleman, here are your Cincinnati Reds.

    Rotation
    Johnny Cueto
    Homer Bailey
    Dustin Moseley
    Brett Tomko
    Buddy Carlyle

    Bullpen
    Trevor Hoffman
    Todd Coffey
    B.J. Ryan
    Josh Roenicke
    Carlos Fisher
    John Koronka
    Zach Stewart

    The sad thing is that this isn't even a bump in the road for the Reds. Cueto's future looks very promising, but before him, they hadn't developed a legitimate major league starter since Tomko, who debuted in 1997, or a good one since Tom Browning, who arrived in 1984.

    The fifth spot came down to Carlyle or Koronka. Koronka has a 6.25 ERA in 30 starts and one relief appearance as a major leaguer, while Carlyle is at 5.58 in 27 starts and 75 relief appearances. Before running either to the mound, I'd want to find out if Jack Armstrong or Scott Scudder feels up to making a comeback.

    The bullpen is in slightly better shape with Hoffman, who spent two years as an infielder and two as a pitcher in the Reds system before being plucked by the Marlins in the expansion draft. A rebound from Ryan would go a long way. Rounding out the staff are the two young relievers the Reds surrendered for Scott Rolen last week: Roenicke and Stewart. Sadly, that left no room for Scott Williamson, who has allowed 10 earned runs in 5 2/3 innings in the minors this season.

    Lineup
    CF Chris Dickerson
    1B Joey Votto
    C Ryan Hanigan
    LF Adam Dunn
    RF Jay Bruce
    2B Aaron Boone
    3B Adam Rosales
    SS Paul Janish

    Bench
    OF Chris Denorfia
    OF Austin Kearns
    C Paul Bako
    INF Zach Cozart
    INF-OF Todd Frazier

    To go along with their two quality pitchers, the Reds also have two above average regulars in Votto and Dunn. Unfortunately, those two, Bruce and Dickerson are all left-handed hitters. For that reason, I've slid Hanigan into the third spot in the lineup, which seems like a better choice than batting Boone second. When the Reds face a lefty starter, Denorfia should start over Dickerson in the leadoff spot.

    The infield is just brutal, aside from Votto, but there aren't any alternatives. Even Edwin Encarnacion was originally a Ranger. Cozart gets the utility gig over fellow prospect Chris Valaika. If the Reds actually had this group, they'd likely be concentrating on Frazier as an infielder. He's played mostly left field in the minors this year. Juan Francisco also provides some home for the future.

    The lone tough call here was whether to go with Bako or Jason LaRue as the backup catcher.

    Summary

    No other team truly compares. The only thing the Reds have done worse than identifying young talent is developing it. Jim Bowden, who remarkably lasted 10 1/2 seasons as the team's GM before being fired in July 2003, deserves a lot of the blame, with much of the rest going to those who kept him in power. Particularly given how little depth there is behind this abysmal group, a major league team using this roster would be lucky to win 40 games.

    http://bases.nbcsports.com/2009/08/r...burgh.html.php
    Last edited by redsfandan; 08-15-2009 at 05:20 PM.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

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    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring the rosters: No. 30 - Cincinnati

    The media will never do this justice. It's downright amazing at just how bad the Reds were at developing talent during Bowden's tenure. I'm so glad he's gone.

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    Bleeding Red in the South
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    Re: Restoring the rosters: No. 30 - Cincinnati

    That is a really sad list to look at. WOW! Thank god things look like the are turning around in the prospect pip line.

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    Tired of talk. Win! Joseph's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring the rosters: No. 30 - Cincinnati

    I find it sad that we had to include guys who haven't even sniffed the bigs this season to fill out the roster.

    Championships for MY teams in my lifetime:
    Cincinnati Reds - 75, 76, 90
    Chicago Blackhawks - 10, 13
    University of Kentucky - 78, 96, 98, 12
    Cincinnati Bengals - None
    Chicago Bulls - 91, 92, 93, 96, 97, 98

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    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring the rosters: No. 30 - Cincinnati

    Here's my all-Bowden draft team:
    C Jason LaRue
    1B Joey Votto
    2B Eric Owens
    3B Aaron Boone
    SS Gookie Dawkins
    LF Adam Dunn
    CF Dewayne Wise
    RF Austin Kearns

    C Paul Bako
    1B Ben Broussard
    IF Brandon Larson
    IF Chris Sexton
    OF Chris Denorfia
    OF Chad Mottola

    SP Brett Tomko
    SP Dustin Moseley
    SP Buddy Carlyle
    SP John Koronka
    SP Lance Davis
    RP B.J. Ryan
    RP Scott Williamson
    RP Scott Sullivan
    RP Ray King
    RP C.J. Nitkowski
    RP Chad Fox
    RP Todd Coffey
    RP John Riedling
    RP Ryan Wagner

    As you'll notice, I included 28 players since it's guaranteed that at least three pitchers will be recovering from arm surgery at all times.

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    Member redsfandan's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring the rosters: No. 30 - Cincinnati

    Keep in mind that Bowden was fired in 2003. While there are some players that were drafted since then on the list there are other players we passed on. For example, Gordon Beckham.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

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    Member 15fan's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring the rosters: No. 30 - Cincinnati

    Bowden's drafts in...

    2000
    Moseley, Sardinha, Snare & Smitherman. Effectively Zilch.

    2001 Only guys to make it to the Show from that draft were Sowers and Nick Markakis. Of course, neither of them spent a single day in the Reds organization. If there is a grade lower than an F, the Reds get it for this year.

    2002 Votto and Denorfia.

    It's quite possible that the 1st round whiff in 2002, when the Reds had the #3 overall pick, was the single biggest draft flub of the aughts. Look at all of the other guys who were on the board when the Reds drafted. Outside of Clint Everts at 5 and Bobby Brownlie at 21, everyone picked 4-25 went on to the majors, with many being impact players. Prince Fielder, Cole Hammels, Nick Swisher, Scott Kazmir, James Loney, Matt Cain...and the Reds got Chris Gruler.

    Finally, 2003 Ryan Wagner and Chris Dickerson are the only guys who ever made it to Cincinnati.

    Over 4 years, that's about 200 picks. For all those picks, the Reds have only Joey Votto and a couple of #4/5 OFs to show, and that's it.

    It's mind-boggling just how bad those drafts were.

    2004-2005 (The DanO years) isn't looking much better, with only Bailey and Janish to show from 2004. 2005 is Jay Bruce, Rosales, and maybe something out of Travis Wood and/or Sam Lecure.
    Last edited by 15fan; 08-18-2009 at 04:04 PM.

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring the rosters: No. 30 - Cincinnati

    Quote Originally Posted by 15fan View Post
    2004-2005 (The DanO years) isn't looking much better, with only Bailey and Janish to show from 2004. 2005 is Jay Bruce, Rosales, and maybe something out of Travis Wood and/or Sam Lecure.
    2005: Bruce, Wood, Lecure, Stevens (reached the majors, now with the Cubs after spending time with the Indians - guy we traded for Phillips), Carlos Fisher, Adam Rosales and Logan Ondrusek. That draft class looks a whole lot better. 2004 also includes Philippe Valiquette and Craig Tatum (who while is no great thing, is in the majors currently).

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    Member paulrichjr's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring the rosters: No. 30 - Cincinnati

    Quote Originally Posted by 15fan View Post
    Bowden's drafts in...


    2004-2005 (The DanO years) isn't looking much better, with only Bailey and Janish to show from 2004. 2005 is Jay Bruce, Rosales, and maybe something out of Travis Wood and/or Sam Lecure.
    Are you kidding? DanO looks like a genius compared to JimBo. Wait a minute. Everyone looks like a genius compared to JimBo.
    Tim McCarver: Baseball Quotes
    I remember one time going out to the mound to talk with Bob Gibson. He told me to get back behind the batter, that the only thing I knew about pitching was that it was hard to hit.

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    Member redsfandan's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring the rosters: No. 30 - Cincinnati

    So from '02-'05 the Reds drafts produced Votto, Bruce, Bailey, Dickerson, ... and not much else.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

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    Re: Restoring the rosters: No. 30 - Cincinnati

    Quote Originally Posted by redsfandan View Post
    So from '02-'05 the Reds drafts produced Votto, Bruce, Bailey, Dickerson, ... and not much else.
    2006: Drew Stubbs, Chris Heisey, Josh Roenicke, and nothing else so far even approaching major league talent.

    (Justin Turner may get a cup of coffee, but he'll never be anything more than a utilityman at best. Ditto for Valaika and Smith. Ravin has some promise but he's still very far from even gaining consideration at this point.)

    2007: Todd Frazier, Zach Cozart, and maybe Neftali Soto should get there. As for anyone else- who knows?

    2008 and 2009 are obviously way too early to tell.
    Last edited by Benihana; 08-18-2009 at 05:38 PM.
    Go BLUE!!!


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